KBZ,

I've continued to be unclear I see. I really shouldn't post between 9pm and noon local.

When you go ot Guy Savoy, you bet your ass you're paying for the ambience, the custom made plates, the name, etc. And if you're not happy paying for those things, along with the (nonlinearly) better food, you shouldn't be eating there. If, like JA Sucker appears to be, you're somehow disgusted by the ambience, obviously paying a markup for something that causes you disutility would be silly. As my girlfriend points out "not only your tastebuds are going to the restaurant, you're going for the experience."

When you go to Tru, some of your money is obviously going to pay for the fact that they have to pay for the museum quality art on the walls. When you go to Alinea you have to pay for the fact that they custom make silverware and plates for each dish. And when you go to anyplace in a stand alone mansion, you're helping pay their mortgage, which is clearly higher than rent in some mall.

Casually throwing the word "value" in at the end of your post does you a disservice. I think that as you pay more certainly you start getting decreasing marginal return on your investment, but I don't think I've found a restaurant yet where my marginal return has turned negative - in the high end category. I've been to many places that I would definitely call overpriced, but none of them have been in the category this thread is about. (These tend to be these weird "night club + food" or "small plates" places that are cropping up everywhere.)

Pudge,

Nice report! That place sounds great, at least from your review and pictures. Next time I'm in Toronto (? LOL ?) we'll have to go.

Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

Hmm. . .

7,

squids don't have shells.

Yeah, I know. The wiki entry on shellfish states that they are sometimes considered shellfish, sometimes not. I'm just a little surprised because I just don't see a huge difference between shrimp and squid - there's a somewhat similar texture, the taste isn't THAT different, etc.

C - gotcha, ok that makes sense (speaking specifically about "high-tech" food).

The reason I mentioned Paris is because it is an amazing food city with a strong, deep regional tradition. And bistro fare is simple to execute on. Many bistros will execute on standard dishes as well as a higher-end restaurant, and at much more affordable prices. Haute cuisine is a different story, which speaks to your point. But many haute rest. will feature traditional bistro fare (their spin), and I doubt it's "worth" the price hike.

Let's take for example Guy Savoy - This is some random blog dude's pictures of the 11-course, 285 euro tasting menu

There are several dishes that leap out as highly replicable / and would be as good at another restaurant - "lobster, crusty and soft, raw and cooked, sauce made from its juices, snap peas, spring onion", the "'chop' of fat turbot with egg and spinach sprouts."

I guess my thinking was along the line of KBZ's - at the end of the day this is food and the "best ingredients", outside of a few luxe items aren't much more expensive... from a "are you getting your money's worth" - paying alot more for that doesn't make much sense.

Also, for the incredible price point hike, I don't believe it's worth it if you are expecting better cooking execution (is the sous chef at Guy Savoy really that much better than at a less expensive establishment?) and presentation (not difficult).

The 2 criteria where it might be worth it to pay more is 1) creativity of the dishes (driven by the executive chef), and of course 2) service.

Overall though I understand your point - the Guy Savoy 11-course tasting menu is insane, and you couldn't get the full breadth of that meal elsewhere, with that level of consistent creativity and execution of dishes, and perfect table service.

-Al

i guess i would say something like

low end - under 10 bucks for entrees
mid range - in the 10-25 vicinity
upper mid - 25-40ish
high end - 40+ for a typical entree

this is far from a perfect breakdown but if you figure in apps and desserts that puts the high-end places in roughly the 75+ range for food only.

when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

i don't have a lot of experience eating out in the south at nice places, my family tends to think Romanelli's or Olive Garden is a 'nice' place so i don't have many occasions to compare with in NC.

i would say that the optimal price point in terms of value in the south is probably more towards low and mid range places, whereas where i was living before the best values (for whatever reason) seemed to be in the middle and upper-middle tier joints. does that make any sense? i'm not too sure about NYC yet but i'm guessing that where it excels is in some of the more unusual low and mid range type places - i.e. 'ethnic cuisines', places that depend on high volume and offer specialized menus, etc. your typical NYC diner isn't going to compete very well with a good southern diner because the overhead is so much higher but the food isn't going to be that different.

i'm also guessing that my NYC restaurant experience is fairly crippled by my inexperience with the outer bouroughs and some of the less horrible parts of manhattan.

If I'm going somewhere to have some beers, a filthy Monte Cristo and watch a football game, loud and crowded is fun. I'm talking about when you go out to 'dine.' I like to eat with space, quiet, and without being rushed.

Suprised to hear you say this. I've always thought that NYC had the best selection of $15-$25 entrees of any city or place I have visited. in fact I feel like great meals are easier to come by and often cheaper in NYC than Boston.

I don't eat shellfish for religious reasons, not taste reasons.

Ah, n/m then.

This thread is so interesting and confusing to me. I have no idea what a >$75/plate restaurant must be like. When I've taken my gf to what is considered the nicest restaurant in La Crosse, the total bill including tip probably ends up around $75. You could order the most expensive appetizer, entree, and dessert in that place and it would still be under $75.

You might have to head over to Rochester and check out the Red Lobster if you want to take it up a notch.

I don't suppose we have anyone here who laid down the 25k to take part in that dinner over in bangkok that can give a review?




(link for anyone who didnt read about it)

http://www.chinatownconnection.com/b...ive-dinner.htm

That's a very expensive meal!

Uh...

-Al

yeah except for the fact that it ends up in the toilet 12 hours later ya know?

even in Boston, an expensive city by most standards, I think there are 3 places where food could cost me > $75 (unless I was really trying to get to $75, or ordering a 5 lb lobster or something). but I'm not really sure, b/c while I go out often, it's not to top tier places.

not included in the above are any of the best steakhouses, where I would normally spend like $40 per entree some split apps for less than $60pp.

according to Zagat, here are the top 10 restuarants in Boston

Oishii
L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Hamersley's Bistro
Blue Ginger
Mistral
Icarus
Il Capriccio
Oleana

I've been to all of these except:

L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Il Capriccio

of which the first 3 probably fit into > $75 pp IF you go with the chefs tasting menus, otherwise not. none of the others do, they are more like $35 - $45 entrees + $15 apps, as are No. 9 Park and the other 2 I presume. I normally don't order dessert, and if I did would split it with someone else.

but anyways to your point Meb, I don't think there are many of these places outside of NYC, SF, LA, and mb Chicago I guess. eating a la Carte in Boston, I could easily do < $75 anywhere in the city.

KBZ,

I'd say that anywhere that has a tasting menu > $80 fits in here, even if you can do a non-tasting menu meal for less. Basically, I read OP as something like >$100 per person for normal meal for two with a bottle of wine. I am sure Boston has tons of restaurants that qualify as high-end dining.

KBZ,

a friend says

federalist
clio
l'estpalier
spire
radius
blue ginger

and "i'm sure there are more"

the point isn't that there are a ton of these places. these are places that people consider "destinations," and obviously you need population and wealth to support these sorts of places, but seriously, a city doesn't have "few" places if it only has 10 places with $125 tasting menus. there aren't like hundreds and hundreds in the US.

El D,

Indeed the thread originally had pretty bad and nebulous specifications. I thought your post in the middle somewhere where you clarified for me was very good though with respect to what types of place I actually intended. I think that keeping wine/drinks out of the equation is helpful, but basically, I wanted to talk about the class of restaurants that are above the standard:

$8-$12 appetizer
$25-$35 entree
$8-$12

=~$60 for food alone type places that are incredibly common everywhere and the standard of "Friday Night Date for yuppies around the world.

I wanted primarilly to talk about places that are "destination restaurants," usually with tasting menu options, but leave room for other things above the "norm" as well.

Cit, Diablo,

I didn't mean to nit up this thread with meal definitions. I will be sure to post a review of a fine dining experience I have had lately!

and Cit I think Radius is very expensive and just ok. I think it's more about "hey look at where I take my clients so I can impress them", not in a "it's all about awesome food and service " way.

Kind of reminds me of Sucker's post... and to the idea of "value".

There are prolly very few, amazing restaurants throughout the country and world that are uncommonly good, with perfect exeuction and service, these "destination restaurants".

But (I haven't been to Radius, but having been an i-banker and VC in NY and SF, and now working in H'wood, have had opp to eat many dinners on the company dime at "fine dining" establishments in 3 major cities) - and alot of these places are only OK to not that good, and you can find comparable to better service and food at more reasonable prices.

This is based on the price range you gave in the OP, and sort of clarified in your most recent post.

-Al

All,

Let's get this thread back on track w/ less discussion of what qualifies and more posts about what you love/hate about high-end restaurants and reviews.

High-end is going to be different for everyone. But in general, we're talking about "special occassion" or maybe "once a month date" or "expense account business dinner woohoo!" type places, not the "go out to a nice dinner on Friday night" places.

A ballpark price range for this is something like over $100 per person bill with a basic bottle of wine. But don't get hung up on that, it'll be more expensive in SF and NYC, less expensive in the midwest and south. By now I think people should know what type of places we're talking about here - if you have a gem of a place that is a real dining experience, review it.

OK, enough discussion on this crap.

Quince and Michael Mina reviews from me shortly.

El D,

Nicely put, thanks.

Tru review and probably Spiaggia review coming from me tonight.