My initial thoughts when I agreed to do this ‘Concept of the Week: 3betting’ post for the micro forum were as follows:
1. Preflop drama is for poor postflop players.
2. People don’t fold often enough to 3bets in the micros.

Generally speaking, calling 3bets in the micros just isn’t profitable and I think that most people will find that if they filter in their DBs for “faced preflop 3bet = true” that they will see calling 3bets is –EV. Let’s look at the above thoughts. So, you’re a positionally aware poker player and you raise a wide range from LP and steal those blinds like it’s your job. Thus, you are more likely to be 3bet preflop from villains both in the blinds and on the button (depending a bit on how loose you are from the CO). Now, because you open wide from the CO and BTN, your LP raises are smaller at 3bbs and your villains are 3betting you to 10-12bbs. If you successfully 4bet only once every 4 hands (i.e. villain folds his 3bet to your 4bet) you get the following:

4 hands
In 3 of those hands, you raise to 3bbs and fold to villains’ 3bets to give you -9bbs.
In 1 of those hands, you 4bet and villain folds his 3bet of 10-12bbs to give you +10-12bbs.

Net profit 1-3bbs over 4 hands You have now taken those “light 3bettors” and bent the situation such that their preflop drama is slightly +EV for you (though, imo, it will be closer to BE over the long run). Now, keep in mind that you’re not going to be 3bet 4 orbits in a row so over 200 hands, or about 22 orbits at the table, you need only successfully 4bet once. I highlight this point because I am NOT advocating that everyone go out there and start 4betting light. You must pick your spots wisely and have enough history with your villain to know what type of range they are 3betting both for value and lightly.

That’s just a general example, but you can see that if you’re being 3bet a ton and folding to even 75% of them (and I do believe that most micro’ers should be folding to the majority of 3bets that they face), that you’re still making a slight profit if you are 4betting in the right spots. But, in general, I find that all that preflop drama ends up being a break even play even if you are 4betting in the right spots and inducing preflop folds from your 3bettors. Now, if you raise to the standard 4+1bb/limper (2p2 dogma) from LP, then your 4bets will need to work with a higher frequency to make all that drama breakeven or slightly +EV for you.

Basically, from my initial 2 thoughts and that little breakdown above, you can see that you can still fold to a majority of 3bets, but, by picking out the correct spots to 4bet, all that preflop drama isn’t going to amount to much.

Now, people often ask me, “How do I deal with these 3bettors??!!!”

My answer is always the same, “It depends!”

It depends on position (are you IP or OOP). It depends on the history you have with that villain (primarily, in the micros, do you have enough history). It depends on what range you think villain is 3betting you with. It depends on the dynamic at the table and what has been going on prior to the drama that unfolds. Etc.

HHs will explain these dependencies and will also give you some examples of how to play in 3bet pots.

The first HH: Villain in this hand is a reg who I have at 10/5/3 AND I have a note on him that says, "he likes to limp/mini-3bet his premiums on occasion. JJ+/AK." People should focus primarily on isolating the fish, but you can certainly also isolate the bad regs. Now, I raised it up preflop here to isolate this villain because if he limp/mini-3bets then I have a hand that, if it flops well, will have decent equity vs. his limp/mini-3bet range, I will have an opportunity to stack him AND I have position on him.

Poker Stars $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $74.95
SB: $25.55
BB: $83.65
UTG: $52.00
UTG+1: $67.75
UTG+2: $50.00
Hero (MP1): $56.00
MP2: $54.95
CO: $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP1 with 7 8
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.50, 5 folds, UTG+2 raises to $6, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($12.75) 6 7 9 (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

Gin. Now, I could raise it up on the flop as I have 14 outs vs. his range (straight draw, 2 pair, trips), but, if I raise it up on the flop then I will basically be polarizing my range to flopped sets and I know that this villain is capable of laying down an overpair. Not to mention, villain's cbet% over almost 500 hands is >80% so he's still going to cbet here even if he has AK.

Turn: ($27.75) 7 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $21.00, UTG+2 folds

Naturally, I hit on the turn, but villain checks to me so I can pretty immediately assign his range as AK and bet on the turn and take this pot away. Note: I could have bet this turn and still taken the pot away even if the turn had been a blank such as a 2 or 3 etc.

Final Pot: $27.75
Hero wins $5.40
Hero wins $21.00
(Rake: $1.35)

I cannot stress the importance of taking notes on your villains while you are playing. If you notice something like a reg limp/3betting premiums, then you can try to isolate that reg when you have position and when you have a hand that stands a chance of flopping with decent equity vs. that villain's limp/3bet range (iff you know that your villain will stack off with an overpair/TP type hand...very important point).

Onto the next hand. In the HH below, villain is a solid reg running at 12/10/4 and has a wider 3bet range from LP (~9% from the CO and BTN). However, villain probably sees me as a pretty solid player and one thing that people really need to keep in mind when facing someone who 3bets wider from LP is that these villains are probably NOT 3betting your UTG raises light (be aware not only of how you see your villain, but also of how your villain views you). I've seen this time and again. People say to me, "but he 3bets light from LP!" Fair enough. But, I think that if you will pay attention that you will see these villains 3betting MP and other LP raises light as opposed to 3betting UTG/EP raises light. When someone 3bets my UTG raise, I almost ALWAYS give that 3bet respect. Not to mention, in the HH below, if I do call villain's 3bet, I will be OOP post flop vs. a solid reg whose 3bet range in this scenario I would assign as JJ+/AK (in this case, QQ+/AK as I hold JJ myself) and given that he 3bet my UTG raise, I'd weight his range as QQ+ and am thus highly uncomfortable felting JJ even on a low flop. Easy fold preflop.

Poker Stars $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: $50.00
MP2: $73.60
CO: $53.20
BTN: $11.00
SB: $37.70
BB: $55.85
Hero (UTG): $51.50
UTG+1: $50.20

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG with J J
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, CO raises to $6.50, 4 folds

Final Pot: $4.75
CO wins $0.25
CO wins $4.50

Now, to those of you who 3bet light from the blinds…I hear it all the time, “That guy is attempting to steal my blinds 50% so I have to protect my blinds!”

Protect your blinds if you must and certainly 3bet a wider range from the blinds both for value and for image. But, imo, you’re not playing a SNG or an MTT. You are playing a cash game. It is MUCH more important to focus on protecting your button than it is to protect your blinds. I’m usually more concerned with protecting my button when there’s a nut job/loose villain sitting just to my right (i.e. not only is he stealing a ton of my blinds, but he’s playing really wide from the CO and is trying to steal my button). Think about it. Go into your DBs and look at your profit from the BTN and it should be much higher than your profit from any other position at the table. People love sitting next to a nit because, “I can steal his blinds all day!” Well, fair enough; but, I’d rather steal his BTN.

3betting light from the button: In the HH below, I only had ~100 hands with villain, but he was running EXTREMELY loose at 22/11/3 over all, so you can imagine that he was pretty much a nut job and from MP, I had him at 26/11. Here, I am protecting my button and doing so pretty lightly imo with pocket 6s. A pfr of 11% can roughly be estimated from MP is, roughly, 22+, lots of suited aces, pretty much any 2 broadway KT+ and some SCs/off suit connectors. Now, it is VERY important to let the villains to your right know that you will 3bet their MP/LP raises when you are OTB and, often, you don't necessarily want to see a flop when you 3bet preflop (i.e. you're happy to take down the chips that are already on the table). In this HH, I am certainly happy to take it down preflop because I don't have much history on this villain and, while I do have position, I have very little idea as to how to play this opponent postflop.

You will make the most money on any given table from the two opponents to your right and the two opponents to your left. Focus on playing those villains at each and every table and I promise that you'll do just fine.

Poker Stars $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: $12.10
UTG+2: $24.45
MP1: $39.55
MP2: $62.75
CO: $84.95
Hero (BTN): $58.35
SB: $48.00
BB: $59.55
UTG: $50.75

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with 6 6
4 folds, MP2 raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds

Final Pot: $3.75
Hero wins $3.75

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

532,526,544 games 0.625 secs 852,042,470 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.450% 48.93% 00.52% 260572446 2762105.00 { 22+, A4s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o }
Hand 1: 50.550% 50.03% 00.52% 266429888 2762105.00 { 6c6h }


As you can see, I am ahead of the range that I assigned villain in this HH, but certainly not by much and, given that I have very little history with this villain, I am happy to take it down preflop because I lack the necessary history to outplay him postflop. Also, it lets villain know to be a little more careful when raising from MP/LP when I am to his left and have position (i.e. it establishes my image in that villain's mind).

How much do your hole cards matter when protecting your button? Not much. In the HH below, I 3bet preflop because over 500 hands, this villain was running at 39/34 from the CO and had a fold to 3bet of 100% from the CO. Again, I am protecting my button, I have position and I have a nut job sitting to my right. Each and every time you 3bet, ask yourself, "Self, why am I 3betting?" Are you 3betting for value? Are you 3betting to scoop up the chips on the table (i.e. your opponent has a very high fold to 3bet %)? Are you 3betting to compensate for being OOP post flop? In addition, when a villain calls your 3bet, you should IMMEDIATELY be able to narrow that opponents range considerably depending on villain's pfr from that particular position and his fold 2 3bet%. Always, always narrow your opponents range based on his actions both preflop and postflop.

Poker Stars $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: $50.00
MP1: $31.70
MP2: $123.20
CO: $60.90
Hero (BTN): $51.35
SB: $30.75
BB: $59.15
UTG: $58.55

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with 2 4
4 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero raises to $6.50, 3 folds

Final Pot: $4.75
Hero wins $0.25
Hero wins $4.50

Playing from the blinds: One of my favorite "moves" from the blinds is to punish people on the button who punish limpers. Think about, 2 people limp in and there's a 2p2'er doing his job on the button and raising to 4bb+1bb/limper from the BTN. Here I am in the SB or BB thinking to myself, "There's a lot of chips on the table and villain OTB is just punishing limpers a majority of the time and won't be able to call a 3bet."

Now, keep in mind that when you 3bet from the blinds that you are going to be OOP post flop. This is an entirely different scenario than when you are in the CO or OTB and are 3betting. I rarely 3bet light from the blinds for this exact reason, unless I have a truly nutty nut sitting OTB or in the CO. Again, I'd rather focus on protecting my BTN than defending my blinds.

In the HH below, villain was running 29/22/1 with an ATS of 60%. This table was pretty tight and this was probably the 3rd or 4th time in a row that villain had ******edly mini-raised in the SB when folded to him. Now, I didn't have much history with this villain, but, in this case, I have position.

Poker Stars $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $50.00
SB: $54.00
Hero (BB): $65.50
UTG: $52.95
UTG+1: $48.75
MP1: $40.40
MP2: $52.95
CO: $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with Q 9
6 folds, SB raises to $1, Hero raises to $5, 1 fold

Final Pot: $2.00
Hero wins $2.00

I'm really not going to go into too much detail on 3betting from the blinds because, again, I rarely 3bet light from the blinds in the micros. You're going to be OOP post flop so I generally 3b from the blinds to compensate for position when I have a strong hand. The majority of my light 3betting takes place from the CO/BTN.

Okay, this is getting long and I'm just going to post it and we can get some discussion going. In summary, I would encourage everyone to focus on their postflop game instead of looking for what I refer to as "preflop drama" spots. Calling 3bets in the micros is generally a losing proposition/-EV so I highly encourage people to FOLD to the majority of 3bets that you face during your stint in the micros. That said, I'm hoping that the beginning of this post showed you how you can make those light 3bettors "pay" for their preflop drama with some well-timed 4bets. I do not advocate 4betting light as I personally find that most of my opponents in the micros were not 3betting nearly as lightly as most people think. Just focus on the two players to your right and the two to your left and outplay those villains since they are the ones who will be giving you the most money.

Thank you for your time and attention . Let the discussion begin.

1rd.

tl; dr

edit: do you have any notes/reads on how often villain stacks off with overpairs, on what types of boards, and which streets ? this stuff is HUGELY important if you're gonna be taking a flop like this with a speculative hand for obvious reasons.

edit 2: and obviously double barreling

on the flop I have no idea why you called, if you think villain is going to have a serious problem calling a healthy raise, and facing turn aggression..if it's because AK represents a healthy portion of his range, again, why wouldn't you be better off forcing him to insta-muck that holding instead of giving him a chance to hit a 6-outter on the turn?

on the turn you assign villain with AK (and probably JJ-QQ), you improve, yet you bet and you bet big. why? how is checking back, or firing a tiny bet NOT a ton more profitable?

also back to the flop - how many turn cards can come to improve your hand yet still give you significant action vs said range? I'm pretty sure the answer is close to 0.

right now im really hungover and thinking seems too challenging right now, as does reading the rest of your post (tho it seems interesting), il probably pop back in later.

Nice post as always in the CotW.

I actually went through some hands where I got 3bet and most of the time (if it wasn't a total maniac) they had a strong hand. So it seems that giving the 3bettor credit for a hand isn't that bad at the micros.

What about hands to call a 3bet with. Is it better to call with high cards than with low PP or SC's?
Feels to me that if you have like AQ and spike a Q on the flop, the 3bettor has KK, AA or AK here so much. On the other hand calling a 3bet with low/middle PP or SC's can get you stacks if you hit, if you miss the flop just fold.

Any thoughts?

^^ I see your point in the HH. But, imo, I am ahead of villain's range on the flop and at the time of the hand, I felt that I had a better chance of stacking villain on the turn than on the flop. As for checking back the turn, it's an obvious option and if I misplayed the hand then so be it. I was simply using it as an example of isolating a reg IP in what is most likely going to be a 3b pot. 78s is the type of hand that is easy to get away from if it doesn't flop well, and, if it does, then it's well-disguised and you can usually stack an opponent with it. As for why I bet the turn, when villain checked in that spot, it's pretty clear to me that I'm not going to get paid in that situation. Again, I was really just trying to use it as an example of playing a SC type hand vs. a reg IP in a 3b pot.

The only parts of my range that I FLAT 3bets with are the top and the middle. So, yes, JJ+/AK being the top and SCs/small-medium PPs being the middle of my range. But, again, you have to know that your villain will stack off with an overpair/TP type hand to start flatting 3bets with SCs and small-mid PPs, imo.

7st

First of all: Excellent article.

However, given your example above I do not like 3 betting that guy with 66 on the button. You get so good set odds by calling. Why turning your good hand 66 into a bluff? If he reraises you have to fold. If he folds this is a good result, but stacking him with a set is even better.

Discuss.

I think because wide preflop range = 0 implied odds.

I read through this just now but I'm definitely going to have to re-read it a few more times.

If you really think the guy will lay down an overpair then I think you can just ship the flop. I don't think its happening once he lrr though.

On the turn I like a bet but you want to lead him gently over the cliff, something like $15 should drag him under with an over pair.
I assume your reference to folding out AK is meant in context of a similar situation but a different board and you pull a float?

The 66 hand...

I am 3betting to protect my button and for value (I'm not "turning my hand into a bluff" at all). I'm ahead of that villain's range and if I simply flat his raise then I most likely won't flop a set and then what? I have no idea how to play him postflop, I don't know if he's "floatable" etc. IMO, there's something to be said for image when you make it clear to the people on your right that they cannot steal your button or, if they do, that it will cost them.

alright, I gotta run so you guys will need to discuss on your own . As for the HHs, I would urge people to read the article for more than just the HHs as I was really trying to get a point across as to when you're facing 3bets in the micros. Playing in 3b pots postflop is an art and it is certainly one that I have not mastered. I'll check back in later and hope the article sparks some interesting discussion. Oh, and perhaps SoundedSimple will pop back in (or Eggpie for that matter) and do a little more detailed math on what is the correct 4b frequency when facing a 3bet to have a slightly +EV situation.

Another excellent OP in this series.

One thing I would caution is when looking at the loss in BB/hand in calling 3bets is to keep in mind that if you folded, your loss is automatically the raise you normally make. Therefore, if your standard raise is 4BB with a hand and your calling 3bet loss with that hand is 2BB/hand, it is worthwhile to make this call. The reason is that you are gaining 2BB in comparison to the alternative of just folding.

I do agree you want to optimize this by picking the best situations, but poker is about losing the least amount of money as well as making the most in a hand. Sometimes that means playing some post flop poker when you don't have the best of it pf.

Using my DB as an illustration for how people ought to go about this analysis to determine their profitability in responding to 3 bets:

1. Note your Fold to 3 bet%



(I'm a calling station, what can I say?)

2. Note your overall performance facing a 3 bet:



3. Note your win rate when 4 betting:



4. Note your win rate when calling a 3 bet:



5. Note your win rate when you are NOT slow playing AA or KK by filtering them out--I call this my unsubsidized 3 bet calling win rate:



The standard for whether you are leaking playing back against 3 bets is NOT making a profit on the hand. If you fold, you lose 3 or 3.5 bb. Therefore, any strategy which yields you less of a loss than folding is a +EV strategy.

In PT this is a loss rate of -1.5 to -1.75ptBB/hand; in HEM, it is a loss rate of -300 to -350 bb/100.

Take a look through your databases in this way, as most of the micro players I have been doing DB analyses for are definitely leaking in one or more of these areas, as knn05 says is likely the case.

You need PT3 to perform such an analysis, right? PT2 does not show 3bet stats as far as I know ?!

Can you somehow filter "calling a 3 bet OOP" and "in position"? Would be interested to see the differences in your stats. I would expect to see much higher EV in position.

Correct, regarding PT2, as far as I recall.

In HEM you just run the report on your position page. Not sure if PT3 will let you do that.

Never ran these filters before. Very informative!
It appears to be a fact it is -EV for me calling 3bts.
Great topic.
Will be reading it over several times.

Mpethy - do the filters account for the dead money?
I'm not sure if they do or how big an effect this would have.

Take the simplest example you open AQs and a shorty ships for 20bb.
Assume SS range is 88+ AQ+, against that range we are a dog but with since we are calling ~17 into 40 it becomes a call.
If you run the HEM filters on this it might show you as losing money even though the entire hand was played optimally.

Sorry for using the SS example, I know its not 100% relevant but I wanted to keep the thing simple.

I think I see what I'm doing wrong now!

I started reading this and my first thought was "why is this about 4betting, its supposed to be about 3betting?" As usual, I'm thinking about the wrong things at the wrong times. This was an excellent article! Very helpful.




For the last month I've been taking a crazy LAG game up through the micros, from 2nl to 5nl to 10nl and now 25nl. I haven't seen this kind of adjustment until 25nl. There's an odd player at 10nl that is good at adjusting, but you should have notes on them. At 25nl its much more common for the standard TAGs to catch on and start value-3betting light. I was running about 60vpip at 2nl, 50 vpip at 5nl and 10nl, but I'm down to 30 vpip at 25nl. Its got me feelin' like a nit again.

My basic point is that generally you should respect the 3bet. Like you said, they're not "playing back" nearly as much as you are wont to think, and usually the best thing is to just fold.

It might take a second reading for a lot of this to sink in.

Its not a bluff; as knn pointed out, we are ever so slightly ahead of his range.

And you do not have good set odds at all. Villain is raising so wide that' he's unlikely to have a hand to stack off with if you hit. You're setmining to win his cbet = losing money.

Edited to add: lol I see I was late to the party, the 3rd person to answer this. Meh, I'll leave it up anyway.

LOL, I probably shoulda given Cliff's notes at the beginning of the thread.

Cliff's notes:
1. fold.
2. fold.
3. fold.
4. If you really think they're playing back at you, then you can mix in the correct 4betting frequency and turn the tide just slightly in your favor such that those light 3bettors end up giving you money (slightly +EV for you) instead of bleeding it from you.
5. They're not playing back at you as much as you'd like to think.
6. Protect your button.

(not necessarily in that order )

was this villain me?

^^ I don't think you were villain in that hand. Villain's screen name is nothing like yours so if your Stars screen name is totally different from your 2p2 handle, then possibly. Otherwise, no.

So simple, yet so good.

As for #6, just how wide/often can I be 3b'ing when OTB? Obviously, I'm not pretending to think I can 3b every raise from the BTN and conversely I will never auto-fold every non premium from the BTN, but where's the middle ground? Is the absolute minimum requirement an idea of a person's preflop opening range?