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Old 02-28-2008, 09:52 AM   #1
threads13
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The Well: threads13

A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except tuesday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer" . The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on tuesday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on tuesday, its your day in the well.

I should be pretty free during the day today to answer these questions. Ask me anything you want. I'll try to make this n exception and not be as cryptic.

So yeah, post your questions and let's have a jolly good time!
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:03 AM   #2
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Re: The Well: threads13

When and why did you start playing poker?
Biggest score in poker?
Lifetime earnings with lifetime graph?
Favorite Family Guy character?
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:17 AM   #3
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
When and why did you start playing poker?
Well, I've always been around poker. My dad plays and I used to watch him when I was a kid. In fact, I used to about once or twice a year collect the rake at home games. So, I had to learn how to count the pot at a young age.

I started "playing" poker somewhat regularly in the 2003-2004 range. That was mostly just screwing around with my friends while (illegally at the time) drinking beer. It wasn't until the summer of '05 that I actually tried to learn a little bit. I started getting into it because I was consistently beating my friends and it was really gaining popular on TV. I thought it was something that I could win a little money doing. Plus, my parents were taking me to Vegas with a bunch of friends in the summer of '05 and I thought I would try to play poker while I was out there. I didn't really actually start "studying" it until 6 or 7 months after I registered here, so the sumer of 06. Basically, from there on out I actually started trying to learn the game. I guess I get into learning the game because I like the idea of building my own little poker empire and it really excites the analytical, logical part of me. I started playing NL regularly in April of '07.

Quote:
Biggest score in poker?
I think probably last month when I went to Casesar's Indiana was the biggest score I've had. I was up about $600 playing 1/2NL in about an hour's worth of play.

Quote:
Lifetime earnings with lifetime graph?
I don't have my database with all of my hands(new computer and losing data). All I really have is my hands since October '07. That's an interesting looking graph though...

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Favorite Family Guy character?
Gotta go with Stewie on that one. I like Brian a lot too. I really didn't discover "The Family Guy" until about recently though so I am still playing catch up.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #4
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Re: The Well: threads13

I read and read and read (books, this forum anything), think "ooh, this is good stuff, I'll uses that" but I know that 5 minutes after I sit down it's more like " ooh, pretty cards, I like pie."

I thought about making a checklist of all the things to think about during a hand:
  • table dynamics
  • image
  • position
  • target SPR
  • flop texture
  • outs
  • ranges
  • equity
  • don't get pie crumbs on the keyboard
  • aggghhhh ... my small brain can't cope!
I'd need to cover the screen with post-it reminders to remember this lot!

* Are you still with me? I'm sorry this is a very long intro. *

Anyway, the question (at last) is what are they key things that you think about during the hand, and what do you leave for a later, offline review?

I thank you, sir.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:33 AM   #5
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Re: The Well: threads13

Thanks for doing it.

How far do you think you can represent hands on different micro levels? I mean something like calling a check-minraise after cbetting on the flop only with overcards and raising on the turn when 3 flush hits when you know the opponent has at least top pair? Is this more likely to work on NL100 than on say NL25?
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:37 AM   #6
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Re: The Well: threads13

What were your biggest leaks / improvements of your game.
Can you give an outline of your 'path of improvement'?
How did you manage to improve and can you give some hints on how to approach working on your game?
List of things you consider to be the biggest leaks you think uNLers have?
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:39 AM   #7
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrumpyB View Post
I read and read and read (books, this formum anything), think "ooh, this is good stuff, I'll uses that" but I know that 5 minutes after I sit down it's more like " ooh, pretty cards, I like pie."

I thought about making a checklist of all the things to think about during a hand:
  • table dynamics
  • image
  • position
  • target SPR
  • flop texture
  • outs
  • ranges
  • equity
  • don't get pie crumbs on the keyboard
  • aggghhhh ... my small brain can't cope!
I'd need to cover the screen with post-it reminders to remember this lot!

* Are you still with me? I'm sorry this is a very long intro. *

Anyway, the question (at last) is what are they key things that you think about during the hand, and what do you leave for a later, offline review?

I thank you, sir.
Haha. Awesome.

Well, one of the biggest things that I work on is keeping my mind on the right things while I'm playing, so I know exactly where you are coming from.

Good question though... let's seee.... I'm going to lay a whole bunch out and then try to summarize.

Let's start with preflop...I think about who has gotten involved and who is left that may get involved. I take a look at their stack sizes and figure out if my hand is playable based on:
  • the stack sizes(this includes what my SPR will be in certain scenarios),
  • the players who have entered the pot or may yet enter the pot,
  • the mistakes I can make players make,
  • and, of course, what my position is like.
So, those are the key preflop things.

Postflop the first thing I try to do is assess how the flop hit my opponents range and how my opponent will perceive the flop to have hit my range. I then try to come up with some sort of idea of how my equity is (good, bad, medicore, etc.) and then I figure out my plan. I base my plan for the hand based on what sort of mistakes I am likely to make my opponent to make and also to avoid make mistakes myself. Also, before I ever put money into the pot postflop I like to ask myself if I am committed. I want to make sure I am not losing my mind before I start betting because it is easy to get caught up in things and the next thing you know you are facing a tough decision.

I guess the big things I think about is my opponent's range, my equity, and how I can make money in that particular scenario. Occasionally other stuff pops in, but I would say that things like table dynamics and table image tend to come up much less rarely. I definitely do switch gears and things like that, but that is more the exception than the rule. The rule is that I am trying to make my opponents make mistakes all the while not screwing things up too badly myself.

As far as leaving for later, sometimes I have really hard time coming up with a good range for my villain because he has taken some funny line. That definitely comes up later on. I'll ask poker buddies about that stuff if I can't figure things out a little bit better on my own. After I have a better idea of the villain's range, I'll run through hands again and see if I should have played another street differently based on my new information. Sometimes that leads me to a situation where I'm not sure if a certain player is better and I will do an EV calculation. FWIW, I think EV calculations are extremely helpful.

Good question... let me know if I accidentally didn't answer it completely...
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:44 AM   #8
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by gieroy View Post
Thanks for doing it.

How far do you think you can represent hands on different micro levels? I mean something like calling a check-minraise after cbetting on the flop only with overcards and raising on the turn when 3 flush hits when you know the opponent has at least top pair? Is this more likely to work on NL100 than on say NL25?
Absolutely. I think it definitely is "easier" to bluff at .5/1 vs .10/.25 because the players there are actually reading hands. At micro levels I am not looking for as many spots to bluff, but it really boils down to finding cards that scare my opponents typical range. I really look at it as an opponent-specific thing and not a level specific thing. So, what I am saying is that you definitely have more thinking opponents that you can bluff at higher levels, but you really have to think about the particular opponent you are trying to bluff.

Does that make sense?

FWIW, I can't imagine too many scenario where I am calling a c/r with only overs. That just doesn't come up a lot.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:55 AM   #9
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Re: The Well: threads13

Here's one I've been discussing with another player. Villain is 36/16/2.5 over 40 with a fold to cbet of 50%. Oh, and I've just read the section in PNL on SPR with Top Pair/Over pair hands if that gives you any idea about what I'm thinking about here.


Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $43.50
UTG: $35.70
UTG+1: $88.60
UTG+2: $38.25
MP1: $5.40
MP2: $13.30
CO: $7.75
BTN: $46.30
SB: $65.40

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K K
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.50, 4 folds, SB calls $0.25, Hero raises to $3.50, UTG calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.00) J 9 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $5.50, UTG calls $5.50

Turn: ($19.00) T (2 players)

Hero?
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:00 AM   #10
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Re: The Well: threads13

Thank you Threads, both for going down the well and for your great answer.

I've already read it twice (as I will again later, with a nice piece of pie), and while it's all excellent, this bit turned on a very bright light with a very loud *ding*:

Quote:
the first thing I try to do is assess how the flop hit my opponents range
I suddenly realised, I do it the other way around; How did it hit me, How did it hit him? Then I get so happy at (1) I forget to do (2). It'll be villain first from now on!

Quote:
Also, before I ever put money into the pot postflop I like to ask myself if I am committed.
I remind myself of this rule every time I've gone too far with a TP hand - which is waaay too often. I must, I must, I must do it earlier!

Thanks again!
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:06 AM   #11
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Re: The Well: threads13

Im having a lot of trouble doing correct thin value bets and good bluffs. Thats almost the same thing as both problems are based on a hand reading issue.

I know I have to practice, think more about their ranges, replay sessions and so on.

But whats the first thing to look at? Where do I start?

EDIT: Im playing NL50 right now.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:14 AM   #12
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Re: The Well: threads13

Im just going to give you some rapid fire one liners.

- How many tables do you play
- What software aids do you use
- Whats your usual level? What level are you taking shots at?
- Favorite poker books?
- You seem a very level headed guy, does anything at the table still get you angry (enough to tilt you)
- In a nutshell how different is stars 50NL/100NL/200NL in your opinion?

Non poker
- What exactly is your job (I know your a programming nerd like me)
- Sporting intrests?
- Fav food?
- Fav film?
- Fav non-poker book?
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:16 AM   #13
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
What were your biggest leaks / improvements of your game.
There has been so many that it is hard to remember.

My biggest leak has got to be playing when I am not on my A game. NL is a problem in that because you can make a HUGE mistake that you wouldn't otherwise make because you aren't focusing.

Learning to plan my hand has been huge. I first learned it in a general capacity in limit, but I have had to refine it in NL because the decisions can be much more difficult and penalties for incorrect decision can be much more costly. That one is a constant work in progress.

I think one of the biggest things I have learned to do is to quit playing OOP and play more in position. This leads to me learning how to double/triple barrel more profitably(still experimenting with this). I think one of the most general important things I have done to improve my game is to continue to experiment and continue to learn.

Quote:
Can you give an outline of your 'path of improvement'?
What exactly are you looking for? What all I have done to learn poker, like books and things like that or what type of things I have worked on?

Let me know and I'll have a stab at this one.

Quote:
How did you manage to improve and can you give some hints on how to approach working on your game?
I think a lot about poker away from the game... sometimes when I shouldn't be. (Glazing over at the dinner table...) I have read and reread a ton of books, posted quite a bit, and chatted poker quite a bit. I think continuing to push yourself to learn is huge. Every day I have something that I am trying to come to grips with, something I am trying to understand more clearly and thoroughly.

I think chatting poker with poker buddies and posting very helpful.

I think getting a coach is a very good idea. A coach can give you a knowledgeable and objective view of your game. Sometimes it is hard to know what you aren't good at. A coach is great for this even if it sometimes kinda stings.

I think remaining open-minded and willing to screw up while experimenting is very helpful. Sometimes I think "Gee, this might work" and so I try it. Sometimes they show up with a hand and I think "Well, I should have put that in their range", and sometimes they do exactly as I expect. You have to try new things that are uncomfortable. You have to fall down over and over again in order to get better.

On that note, not taking things at face value is important too. Sometimes things in these parts tend to get a little dogmatic. It's just the nature of the beast. If you just assume that the 2+2 standard is that absolute best way to go then you will miss out on a lot of the little intricacies and also the limits of the said standard. Standards are great when you are starting out, but I think it's important to think for yourself and to challenge yourself to understand why a given play is good or bad. Every time you find that a play is good, try to find when it may be bad.

I feel that posters often get caught up in the group-think and never even given themselves a chance to consider other options. Don't assume that the standard is correct. Experiment and think critically.

Quote:
List of things you consider to be the biggest leaks you think uNLers have?


I have kinda touched on them earlier but here's some more. I think that not learning things thoroughly is a bigger leak than screwing something up at the table. If can't improve then you are stuck in a much bigger leak than if you call without the odds once every hundred hands(yes, its not the typical definition of a leak... but you see what I'm getting at). I think group-think ends up being a leak because it slows posters' developments. I think another leak people make is overestimating their implied odds. I think people tend to overprotect their blinds. I think people tend to play out of position in bad spots too often. I think limping in and calling a raise OOP with a weak hand(or raising and calling a 3-bet OOP with a weak hand). By weak, I mean that players are calling raises in those spots with too weak of hands. Conversely, in some games I think players tend to play too aggressively when their money actually is coming from implied odds.

So, maybe a better idea of a leak is people tend to end up on the wrong side of the implied odds equation. I see posters needlessly stunting their implied odds when they are huge and I see posters playing for implied odds that aren't there.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:55 AM   #14
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptVimes View Post
Here's one I've been discussing with another player. Villain is 36/16/2.5 over 40 with a fold to cbet of 50%. Oh, and I've just read the section in PNL on SPR with Top Pair/Over pair hands if that gives you any idea about what I'm thinking about here.


Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $43.50
UTG: $35.70
UTG+1: $88.60
UTG+2: $38.25
MP1: $5.40
MP2: $13.30
CO: $7.75
BTN: $46.30
SB: $65.40

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K K
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.50, 4 folds, SB calls $0.25, Hero raises to $3.50, UTG calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.00) J 9 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $5.50, UTG calls $5.50

Turn: ($19.00) T (2 players)

Hero?
Heh... putting me on the spot....

I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are thinking that you aren't committed against this guy so you shouldn't be betting the turn? Your target SPR is too high against him to commit?

It's kind of a sucky spot because all of your options suck(like that logic? ). Starting with a range. I'd put a player like this on SC's, weak big cards(QT and stuff like that), and maybe some suited A's preflop. So, when he flat calls the flop I would be putting him on a hand worse than top pair or some sort of draw. I think an aggressive player c/r's you with top-pair or better here. So, on the turn I think you are either ahead and he has plenty of outs or you are behind to a two-pair, set, or straight. Say you bet the turn and he pushes... you don't like your hand. Sure, he could be doing it with a draw, but more often than not he has you beat. You may be good close to the required amount of time because you have some outs against two-pair and sets... and even straights for that matter. However, you do have a strong hand so you hate to fold it with having invested so much money in the pot. So, you don't like c/f'ing and c/c'ing. You don't like giving a free card because the board is dangerous and the pot is big. Also, if/when he bets big on the river you are going to have a tough call on a lot of cards. I think checking is probably best here. You can call a lot of river bets because you will be inducing him to bluff with some hands like busted draws that could still be in there. You will sometimes counterfeit his two-pair or make a straight. Another option is just pushing the turn. Another option, since the pot is big you want to maxmize your chance of winning it is just pushing the turn. However, I think against your villains range you will just never get called by a worse hand so I don't like that so much.

I think the real problem was on the flop though. On that flop against that player, I would be committed. I would then go ahead and bet more on the flop because you want to get money in as quickly as possible and the board is drawy. If you bet the flop and get called I still think you are against the same range of hands and that your equity is the same as the way it was played. I think at that point you can still end up checking. Pushing actually becomes a bit better in this spot because the money left behind is significantly less. You may start getting called by some worse hands, the pot is bigger, and you risk less.

I think really the way to look at is that you should be committed on that flop and to come up with a plan from there. I definitely think you are conditionally committed though. That turn card is bad enough that I think on the turn you shouldn't be committed. I think it's somewhat close though.

I didn't proofread so call me out if I am inconsistent or unclear.

Agree... disagree? What have you and the other player been thinking?
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:59 AM   #15
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by WantToLearn View Post
Im having a lot of trouble doing correct thin value bets and good bluffs. Thats almost the same thing as both problems are based on a hand reading issue.

I know I have to practice, think more about their ranges, replay sessions and so on.

But whats the first thing to look at? Where do I start?

EDIT: Im playing NL50 right now.
Well, it's hard to know based on just that... Can you give some examples where you think you may went wrong?

I'd guess that you might be able to narrow your villain's range more on the turn and river than you already are. Also, you may not be taking advantage of the fact that you can make some "big laydowns" because of a predictable betting pattern. IE., You can bet your TPTK against a passive player IP when the FD comes in because if he c/r's you, you know your beat. However, he may still call with worse top pairs and maybe even a lone suited card for the flush. Make sense?
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:22 PM   #16
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounded Simple View Post
Im just going to give you some rapid fire one liners.

- How many tables do you play
It depends. I am not a huge multi-tabler. I don't really find it that much fun to play more than 6-8 tables. So, I feel comfortable around 6 tables. However, if I am moving up in limits I will just play a couple tables to try to hone in on the differences. I am taking a shot a 1/2 online currently, so I am just playing two.

Quote:
- What software aids do you use
I assume you mean like PT? I use PT and paHUD. I also look through poker EV a bit. I use PokerStove a bit and I also use Ed Miller's equity calculator. I really enjoy Ed's because it allows you to weight a villains range. So, if you think he will only play AA 20% of the time it will do that for you so you can have a better idea of your equity.

Quote:
- Whats your usual level? What level are you taking shots at?
Usually .5/1 lately. I have been jumping around a lot lately because I have been doing a lot of experimenting and that means moving down so I don't charge myself so much for my mistakes. Also, I have been working on new things with my coach, so that has led me to playing down a level also while I am learning and applying/misapplying new concepts. So, I have been playing a little .25/.50 as well. I have been taking shots at 1/2 this week and I will continue to do that until 1/2 tells me that I shouldn't be doing it..

Quote:
- Favorite poker books?
Theory of Poker
Professional No-Limit Volume:1
No-Limit Theory and Practice
Small Stakes Hold 'Em
Inside the Poker Mind
Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players

Quote:
- You seem a very level headed guy, does anything at the table still get you angry (enough to tilt you)
Ah... perceptions can be misleading.

Actually, I usually tilt myself more than anything. When I make a bad player or read I tend to be pretty hard on myself. I have been trying to tell myself that it is just part of the learning process and move on. Sometimes just the grind of it all can gradually put me on a more of a silent tilt. Ya know, the kind that sneaks up on ya. Really abusive players both me though. I wouldn't say they put me on tilt because I don't change my play to incorrect play because of them, but they really are annoying.

Quote:
- In a nutshell how different is stars 50NL/100NL/200NL in your opinion?
I don't think there is a huge jump between 50 and 100. I think the players get a little better, but nothing huge. 200 players just get more aggressive, you will get squeezed and 3-bet light a bit more often. So, that obviously cuts into your stealing profits a little bit. I think players make silly mistakes(generally players tend to make each other player perfectly too often) often at all levels though.

Quote:
Non poker
- What exactly is your job (I know your a programming nerd like me)
Well, I'm not exactly a programmer by definition of my job but I do a lot of that sorta of stuff. I am a programmer by degree(computer science), a customer support person by title, and I actually do a lot of work on analyzing and correcting bad data on SQL databases. I also do some conversions and things like that. I kind of end up being a hybrid between a developer and a support person. I work with the customers some and I work with the data some.

Quote:
- Sporting intrests?
Playing? I like playing basketball, golf, tennis(just with my GF, I'm not any good at all... we just hit the ball around), football and hockey. I don't really play much of anything these days though. I played organized football, basketball, and hockey when I was younger but once I started getting into music I left those behind.

Watching? I watch college hoops when its on or during the "big dance". I watch the NFL pretty religiously. I am from Indiana... so I'm a Colts fan. I will watch the big majors in golf. I don't watch the NBA much since Reggie retired.

Quote:
- Fav food?
Oh man... If I had to pick one thing I'd have to go with Chicago-Style Deep Dish pizza. I love lots of stuff though. As my gf would put it, "Some people eat to live and other people live to eat". I live to eat. Fortunately, I have managed to not become too overweight in the process...

Quote:
- Fav film?
Another tough one. I'll name off a couple off the top of my head because there are so many good ones.

Braveheart.
American Beauty
Fight Club
American History X

There's more of course... but those pop up right off the top of my head.

Quote:
- Fav non-poker book?
This counts as one book because they were written as one book. Lord of the Rings.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:29 PM   #17
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Re: The Well: threads13

Not to be rude but I am new to 2+2. If you dont mind me asking, who are you?
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #18
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Re: The Well: threads13

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Originally Posted by MountainBum View Post
Not to be rude but I am new to 2+2. If you dont mind me asking, who are you?
I've just been around awhile. It is just a bit of a tradition for posters who have been around a block to do these things. It allows others to get in touch with the person in the well and ask whatever they'd like. It usually makes for interesting discussion.

Edit: So no, I'm not famous.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:37 PM   #19
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Re: The Well: threads13

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrumpyB View Post
Thank you Threads, both for going down the well and for your great answer.

I've already read it twice (as I will again later, with a nice piece of pie), and while it's all excellent, this bit turned on a very bright light with a very loud *ding*:



I suddenly realised, I do it the other way around; How did it hit me, How did it hit him? Then I get so happy at (1) I forget to do (2). It'll be villain first from now on!



I remind myself of this rule every time I've gone too far with a TP hand - which is waaay too often. I must, I must, I must do it earlier!

Thanks again!
No troubles. I enjoy helping people out around here and... who doesn't like talking about themselves?


I know what you mean too. Usually once a session I make a bet and say immediately afterwards "That was stupid." Personally, I just have to slow things down.
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:11 PM   #20
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Re: The Well: threads13

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Heh... putting me on the spot....

I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are thinking that you aren't committed against this guy so you shouldn't be betting the turn? Your target SPR is too high against him to commit?

It's kind of a sucky spot because all of your options suck(like that logic? ). Starting with a range. I'd put a player like this on SC's, weak big cards(QT and stuff like that), and maybe some suited A's preflop. So, when he flat calls the flop I would be putting him on a hand worse than top pair or some sort of draw. I think an aggressive player c/r's you with top-pair or better here. So, on the turn I think you are either ahead and he has plenty of outs or you are behind to a two-pair, set, or straight. Say you bet the turn and he pushes... you don't like your hand. Sure, he could be doing it with a draw, but more often than not he has you beat. You may be good close to the required amount of time because you have some outs against two-pair and sets... and even straights for that matter. However, you do have a strong hand so you hate to fold it with having invested so much money in the pot. So, you don't like c/f'ing and c/c'ing. You don't like giving a free card because the board is dangerous and the pot is big. Also, if/when he bets big on the river you are going to have a tough call on a lot of cards. I think checking is probably best here. You can call a lot of river bets because you will be inducing him to bluff with some hands like busted draws that could still be in there. You will sometimes counterfeit his two-pair or make a straight. Another option is just pushing the turn. Another option, since the pot is big you want to maxmize your chance of winning it is just pushing the turn. However, I think against your villains range you will just never get called by a worse hand so I don't like that so much.

I think the real problem was on the flop though. On that flop against that player, I would be committed. I would then go ahead and bet more on the flop because you want to get money in as quickly as possible and the board is drawy. If you bet the flop and get called I still think you are against the same range of hands and that your equity is the same as the way it was played. I think at that point you can still end up checking. Pushing actually becomes a bit better in this spot because the money left behind is significantly less. You may start getting called by some worse hands, the pot is bigger, and you risk less.

I think really the way to look at is that you should be committed on that flop and to come up with a plan from there. I definitely think you are conditionally committed though. That turn card is bad enough that I think on the turn you shouldn't be committed. I think it's somewhat close though.

I didn't proofread so call me out if I am inconsistent or unclear.

Agree... disagree? What have you and the other player been thinking?
Yes, I agree, but I was thinking even further back in the hand. Preflop, hero bets 4bb+1 per limper, standard. With this hand I know three things PF, I am likely ahead of these limpers by a long way, except for the SB, noone is playing with full stack, and finally I'm going to be out of position the rest the hand leading to the sucky turn spot where all my options suck.

I figure I'm pretty much commited preflop so why not raise to something like 4 or 4.5 if someone will still call. It reduces the implied odds to almost nothing usable. Even with the standard raise they would almost have to think hero is going to stack off everytime they hit their monster if only one calls. Here's a chance to put your "overvaluing implied odds leak" to use. Plus at 4.5 it manipulates our SPR to about 3 if one of the shortstacks calls and 4 against SB if they call.

I think this is similar to what you where saying but it takes it back one street further. Any benefit to this?
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:21 PM   #21
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Re: The Well: threads13

I have a few questions for you about my game.

1. In an earlier post you were talking about playing on your "A" game. I had this problem last night. I worked a 12 hour shift and really did not want to play, opened up 3 tables and had a bad feeling from the start. I lost quite a bit within a few hours. (I moved down to 10NL FR last weekend). I then bounced around 25NL FR/25NL 6 Max/ and ended at ss 50NL for 50bbs trying to get back to even. How do you keep the discipline to not make stupid mistakes like this and stay at your current limit, and not play when you know you shouldnt. I find I when I am playing the way I should be "A" game I almost always have winning sessions, when I have losing sessions I blame it on luck but really I know it was my bad plays.

2. Draws. I was in a situation with a K high open ended straight + flush draw and was facing an AI on the turn. KQ on a 10Jxx board with 4 diamonds. I put Vil on top pair good kicker or two pair. Basically I was pretty sure I was beat but felt I had so many outs I should call. I dont remember the specifics but we were both about 150bbs at the start of the hand. After using all my time I called and missed, Vil had AJ and stacked me. Was this a bad play. I really hate getting AI with draws, is this a leak, or standard? His bet turn bet was obvoiusly considerably more than the current pot so I believed he knew I was drawing. I know there are a lot of other factors to consider, what are you willing to risk with what types of draws?

3. Scared C-Betting. I find myself scared to c-bet OOP quite often. I know being out of position in the first place could be the problem. But, c-betting and folding a rr or getting called and folding turn seems to ruin my image at the table if it happens 2-3 times in a session and then i feel i am getting bluffed more. Do you ever feel "scared" of making certain bets and how do you deal with that?

Thanks
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:22 PM   #22
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Re: The Well: threads13

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Yes, I agree, but I was thinking even further back in the hand. Preflop, hero bets 4bb+1 per limper, standard. With this hand I know three things PF, I am likely ahead of these limpers by a long way, except for the SB, noone is playing with full stack, and finally I'm going to be out of position the rest the hand leading to the sucky turn spot where all my options suck.

I figure I'm pretty much commited preflop so why not raise to something like 4 or 4.5 if someone will still call. It reduces the implied odds to almost nothing usable. Even with the standard raise they would almost have to think hero is going to stack off everytime they hit their monster if only one calls. Here's a chance to put your "overvaluing implied odds leak" to use. Plus at 4.5 it manipulates our SPR to about 3 if one of the shortstacks calls and 4 against SB if they call.

I think this is similar to what you where saying but it takes it back one street further. Any benefit to this?
That's a good point. I hadn't though of that. I would dig raising more than standard, and I even do this sometimes, I just missed it there. The whole thing against raising more is you want to make sure that you aren't forcing out your action. I don't think that is enough of an issue to not raise a little bit more here though.

To nit pick, I wouldn't say that you are pretty much committed yet. You are still conditionally committed. If an A comes on the flop you are likely not going to be saying "YES... LET'S GET IT IN!" .
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:43 PM   #23
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Re: The Well: threads13

[QUOTE]I have a few questions for you about my game.

1. In an earlier post you were talking about playing on your "A" game. I had this problem last night. I worked a 12 hour shift and really did not want to play, opened up 3 tables and had a bad feeling from the start. I lost quite a bit within a few hours. (I moved down to 10NL FR last weekend). I then bounced around 25NL FR/25NL 6 Max/ and ended at ss 50NL for 50bbs trying to get back to even. How do you keep the discipline to not make stupid mistakes like this and stay at your current limit, and not play when you know you shouldnt. I find I when I am playing the way I should be "A" game I almost always have winning sessions, when I have losing sessions I blame it on luck but really I know it was my bad plays.

[quote]

Hm, probably just self-control more than anything, honestly. I still definitely lapse on it and use the over-confident reasoning of "My B game is good enough". Problem is, if I know I'm not on my A game... I am probably on my C or D game. My C or D game is probably pretty close to breakeven or losing really so it isn't going to take much to swing that into -EV land. I think you just have to be honest with yourself. It is easy to get in denial about it.

Also, I think another thing that is important is to having other things you can do. You don't want to fall into the trap of "Oh, well... I know I'm not on my game, but I am bored so I will play." That is just a recipe for suckage. Personally, I will pick up the guitar and play... or I will post... or I will watch a movie... hang out with the gf... you get the idea.


Quote:
2. Draws. I was in a situation with a K high open ended straight + flush draw and was facing an AI on the turn. KQ on a 10Jx board with 4 diamonds. I put Vil on top pair good kicker or two pair. Basically I was pretty sure I was beat but felt I had so many outs I should call. I dont remember the specifics but we were both about 150bbs at the start of the hand. After using all my time I called and missed, Vil had AJ and stacked me. Was this a bad play. I really hate getting AI with draws, is this a leak, or standard? His bet turn bet was obvoiusly considerably more than the current pot so I believed he knew I was drawing. I know there are a lot of other factors to consider, what are you willing to risk with what types of draws?
Assuming I am reading it right, the turn situation you were in was just an example of figuring out if you had the odds to call. The way I go about figuring those things out is figuring out how many outs I have for my big draws and then discounting from there. So, if you think he has AJ then you appear to have 15 outs. However, he may sometimes have the A diamonds so you have to discount your flush outs. So, maybe you have more like 5 outs to a flush(this is saying that he has the A diamonds 50% of the time... they may be a bit of an overestimate) and more to a non-flush straight card. That's 11 outs. So, now you have figured your outs and you can just see if the pot odds are good enough for calling.

11 outs...
46/11 - 1 = 3.18

So you need 3.18-to-1 pot odds to call. Since he is AI it is really just looking at the immediate odds and seeing if you can call.

I do think that players tend to get a little silly sometimes with draws. If you are raising a draw you are getting your value both making better hands fold and ending up with the best hand. You have to determine where your money is coming from. Are you going to make a lot of hands fold? Then a raise with a draw is better. Is this guy going to pay me off for a couple of bets when I hit? Then calling and winning by hitting a hand is better. I don't like pushing draws where you will be -EV if called and you have almost a zero percent chance of getting a fold. That just is silly. If you have a near 0 percent chance of getting a fold, then your villain is offering some implied odds. That may very well be a much better play. Of course, it's very situational.

I can't say whether or not your play is good because I don't know the exact numbers involved or how you got into that spot.

Quote:
3. Scared C-Betting. I find myself scared to c-bet OOP quite often. I know being out of position in the first place could be the problem. But, c-betting and folding a rr or getting called and folding turn seems to ruin my image at the table if it happens 2-3 times in a session and then i feel i am getting bluffed more. Do you ever feel "scared" of making certain bets and how do you deal with that?

Thanks
I wouldn't say scared... but I definitely don't like being OOP against a decent player. Again, it's very situational and opponent-dependent.

In general, I c-bet less OOP than IP because of the reasons you stated. However, I bet less in general OOP as well. So, it goes both ways. If you are fairly sure that you are going to be called and your equity against your villains calling range sucks, then there isn't much of an incentive to bet.

If I am up against a villain who is calling my bets light and then betting when I check the turn, I switch things up. I will c/r the turn with some semi-bluff hands and things like to get him to back up off me. It really doesn't come up that much though. I am not playing that many hands that see a flop OOP. I don't know an exact number, but I would guess that when a flop is seen I am in position over 80% of the time. I would think if you are playing .05/.10NL that you won't see it happening that much at all. When you are getting called it is probably by a reasonable hand. So, you can adjust to this by value betting when you are ahead of their range and c-betting less when you aren't. Also, you can tighten up in position(although don't follow this too blindly because I have no idea how many hands you are playing in EP).
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:50 PM   #24
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Re: The Well: threads13

what school in IN did you go to?
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:51 PM   #25
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Re: The Well: threads13

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what school in IN did you go to?
You mean college or high school?
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