The Three Basic Fish Types
03-05-2009
, 02:05 PM
03-05-2009
, 02:24 PM
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with K
T
, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 7
8K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.
The turn is the T. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with K
T, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.The turn is the T
. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
03-05-2009
, 02:30 PM
Quote:
2. The Aggrodonk
Main Weakness: Bets/raises too much.
Typical Stats: 31/25, 40/30, 55/30, 70/45. Look for a very high AF, usually a low fold to cbet, damn near 100% cbet%, particularly a lot of flop aggression. Also, every now and then you'll see a player that's more loose-passive preflop (35/7 and stuff) but turns into an aggrodonk postflop. Usually you can identify an aggrodonk within 20-30 hands without the help of a HUD. They dominate tables and are very conspicuous.
Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river. His weakness is that he bets too much; exploit it by calling down light. If you hit top pair/good kicker, you should check and call every street. Better than that, tend to check/call the flop and turn and then check/raise the river. Be very suspicious when an aggrodonk checks; they tend to be opposite players and when they check, a lot of the time they're (poorly) hiding a monster.
Main Weakness: Bets/raises too much.
Typical Stats: 31/25, 40/30, 55/30, 70/45. Look for a very high AF, usually a low fold to cbet, damn near 100% cbet%, particularly a lot of flop aggression. Also, every now and then you'll see a player that's more loose-passive preflop (35/7 and stuff) but turns into an aggrodonk postflop. Usually you can identify an aggrodonk within 20-30 hands without the help of a HUD. They dominate tables and are very conspicuous.
Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river. His weakness is that he bets too much; exploit it by calling down light. If you hit top pair/good kicker, you should check and call every street. Better than that, tend to check/call the flop and turn and then check/raise the river. Be very suspicious when an aggrodonk checks; they tend to be opposite players and when they check, a lot of the time they're (poorly) hiding a monster.
I tend to do this and make hero calls. I'm curious to get your perspective though, I made a thread here about calling a aggrodonks bets and I was told I'm a spew, I even gave examples from my most recent session (reposted below) and I was given the consenus that I am leaking money. I think my play is +EV against aggrodonks but I'm curious to get your perspective.
ps sorry in advance if I'm hijacking the thread and taking it in a different direction and being selfish but I thought some RL examples might benefit
Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with you ... look at the title of my thread. However below is why I make the call (all from last night). However in hindsight, I should have shoved the turn.
MP1: $31.65
MP2: $17.40
CO: $11.50
BTN: $20.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $25.90
UTG: $12.55
UTG+1: $14.50
UTG+2: $7.15
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q A
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 5 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1.75
Flop: ($5.25) 2 8 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG+1 raises to $12 all in, Hero calls $8
Turn: ($29.25) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($29.25) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $29.25
Hero shows Q A (a pair of Eights)
UTG+1 mucks T Q
Hero wins $27.80
(Rake: $1.45)
BTN: $25.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $9.05
UTG: $6.00
UTG+1: $10.05
MP1: $14.90
MP2: $38.45
CO: $27.00
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with 2 2
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold
Flop: ($2.50) T T 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero calls $2, UTG folds
Turn: ($6.50) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $3, Hero calls $3
River: ($12.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $7, Hero calls $7
Final Pot: $26.50
Hero shows 2 2 (two pair, Tens and Deuces)
MP2 shows 8 9 (a pair of Tens)
Hero wins $25.25
(Rake: $1.25)
Hero (BB): $31.25
UTG: $25.50
MP: $5.50
CO: $5.00
BTN: $21.55
SB: $24.75
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 4 9
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.25
Flop: ($1.50) 7 3 T (3 players)
SB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, BTN folds
Turn: ($4.50) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero calls $4
River: ($12.50) T (2 players)
SB bets $4.25, Hero calls $4.25
Final Pot: $21.00
Hero shows 4 9 (two pair, Tens and Nines)
SB shows 2 7 (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
Hero wins $20.00
(Rake: $1.00)
CO: $28.10
Hero (BTN): $33.30
SB: $19.50
BB: $15.00
UTG: $31.15
UTG+1: $25.00
MP1: $40.95
MP2: $24.65
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with Q K
5 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75
Flop: ($3.00) 6 6 5 (3 players)
SB bets $1.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.50, SB calls $2.25
Turn: ($10.00) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
River: ($10.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $2.25, Hero calls $2.25
Final Pot: $14.50
Hero shows Q K (a pair of Sixes - King kicker)
SB shows 7 8 (a pair of Sixes)
Hero wins $13.80
(Rake: $0.70)
MP1: $31.65
MP2: $17.40
CO: $11.50
BTN: $20.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $25.90
UTG: $12.55
UTG+1: $14.50
UTG+2: $7.15
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q
A1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 5 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1.75
Flop: ($5.25) 2
8 3 (2 players)Hero bets $4, UTG+1 raises to $12 all in, Hero calls $8
Turn: ($29.25) 5
(2 players - 1 is all in)River: ($29.25) 8
(2 players - 1 is all in)Final Pot: $29.25
Hero shows Q
A (a pair of Eights)UTG+1 mucks T
QHero wins $27.80
(Rake: $1.45)
BTN: $25.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $9.05
UTG: $6.00
UTG+1: $10.05
MP1: $14.90
MP2: $38.45
CO: $27.00
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with 2
2UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold
Flop: ($2.50) T
T 5 (3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero calls $2, UTG folds
Turn: ($6.50) 4
(2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $3, Hero calls $3
River: ($12.50) 3
(2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets $7, Hero calls $7
Final Pot: $26.50
Hero shows 2
2 (two pair, Tens and Deuces)MP2 shows 8
9 (a pair of Tens)Hero wins $25.25
(Rake: $1.25)
Hero (BB): $31.25
UTG: $25.50
MP: $5.50
CO: $5.00
BTN: $21.55
SB: $24.75
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 4
93 folds, BTN raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.25
Flop: ($1.50) 7
3 T (3 players)SB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, BTN folds
Turn: ($4.50) 9
(2 players)SB bets $4, Hero calls $4
River: ($12.50) T
(2 players)SB bets $4.25, Hero calls $4.25
Final Pot: $21.00
Hero shows 4
9 (two pair, Tens and Nines)SB shows 2
7 (two pair, Tens and Sevens)Hero wins $20.00
(Rake: $1.00)
CO: $28.10
Hero (BTN): $33.30
SB: $19.50
BB: $15.00
UTG: $31.15
UTG+1: $25.00
MP1: $40.95
MP2: $24.65
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with Q
K5 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75
Flop: ($3.00) 6
6 5 (3 players)SB bets $1.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.50, SB calls $2.25
Turn: ($10.00) 2
(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks
River: ($10.00) 3
(2 players)SB bets $2.25, Hero calls $2.25
Final Pot: $14.50
Hero shows Q
K (a pair of Sixes - King kicker)SB shows 7
8 (a pair of Sixes)Hero wins $13.80
(Rake: $0.70)
03-05-2009
, 03:06 PM
Quote:
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with KT, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.
The turn is the T. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with K
T, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.The turn is the T
. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
I am not attempting to derail your post, this is quite literally the most coherent logical post I have read in the past several weeks and my guess is that you play and beat FAR higher than unl.
I just want to make the point that we can't be calling down with extremely weak hands given a very very dangerous board. He still has two cards and enough of these combinations will beat us on very dangerous boards
This is literally like 10% of the time against aggro donks (4 str8d 4 flushed boards), not often but still significant enough to mention.
Last edited by Pyro12345; 03-05-2009 at 03:11 PM.
03-05-2009
, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Ok, I agree with this logic entirely, but the question I have is do you pay off a Js river? this is where I feel that (given the strength of the board) even an aggrodonks betting range crushes our calling range (i know we have 2phere but esp if we have tpgk or weaker)
is the second or third worst card in the deck to hit the river (after the 9 and possibly the A), but that won't happen terribly often, and no, it's not horrible to fold when that happens (hey, if he WAS bluffing it'll just encourage him to keep doing it in future hands, when the board isn't so wet and we can easily call him down). Usually the river will be less dangerous and we can snap him off. We just have to be sure not to tilt/spaz when he does show up with a flush/straight/rivered trips, which he will now and again.
03-05-2009
, 04:46 PM
Good thread. Nothing I didn't know already, but it's great to see posters helping out the noobs actually trying to learn stuff and helping out us uNLers put in words what is usually just incoherent and nonverbal thoughts in our head.
+1 more for the sticky, I have bookmarked this and will make sure it goes on my blog
. Best post in uNL so far IMHO.
+1 more for the sticky, I have bookmarked this and will make sure it goes on my blog
. Best post in uNL so far IMHO.
03-05-2009
, 08:26 PM
I posted this hand in BvB before reading this post and used the term "aggrodonk" to describe the villian in this hand.
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 57817
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
SB: $27.80
Hero (BB): $24.25
UTG: $27.75
UTG+1: $32.05
MP: $6.75
CO: $23.15
BTN: $29.85
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with K 6
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.60) K 8 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75
Turn: ($2.10) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75
River: ($5.60) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3, Hero calls $3
(Aggrodonk had J8o.)
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 57817
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
SB: $27.80
Hero (BB): $24.25
UTG: $27.75
UTG+1: $32.05
MP: $6.75
CO: $23.15
BTN: $29.85
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with K
61 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.60) K
8 9 (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75
Turn: ($2.10) 4
(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75
River: ($5.60) 2
(2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3, Hero calls $3
(Aggrodonk had J8o.)
03-06-2009
, 06:32 PM
Quote:
2. The Aggrodonk
Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river.
Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river.
Quote:
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with KT, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.
Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with K
T, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.I partially agree with the sentiment "let them hang themselves" but there are exceptions. (i) Raising/3b pre or on the flop can reduce the field to HU; (ii) on drawy boards, raising aggro-donks with TPGK+ may induce them to 3b a worse pair or worse kicker (i.e., they think you're the one on the draw).
In the example you give in the second quote, flatting offers the BB almost 4:1 and you give him some pretty sweet options if he has a str8 draw of FD.
03-09-2009
, 08:07 AM
03-09-2009
, 09:01 PM
Thank you for such a succinct and funny explanation of the different kinds of fish in the pond. I recognize all the characters and even see too much of myself in a few of them.
I am still new to 2+2 and the online game, but I have been playing poker since the 1960's, (7-stud and 5 card draw, I know, I am old), but this kind of thoughtful information is why I am lurking around 2+2 nearly every day. I know my understanding of the game is increasing at a rate that years of playing the weekly game never produced.
Thanks to all.
I am still new to 2+2 and the online game, but I have been playing poker since the 1960's, (7-stud and 5 card draw, I know, I am old), but this kind of thoughtful information is why I am lurking around 2+2 nearly every day. I know my understanding of the game is increasing at a rate that years of playing the weekly game never produced.
Thanks to all.
03-10-2009
, 09:11 AM
