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Old 03-05-2009, 01:56 PM   #26
Pyro12345
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

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Old 03-05-2009, 02:05 PM   #27
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

High-larious! I gotta run, but I only read the part AFTER the divider and found it to be pretty damn insightful. WIll read the part before when I get back.


No, this is not a level.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:11 PM   #28
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post

1. Usually when the draw comes in we'll see it, and won't lose too much to it with our usual calling range against him
Can you elaborate on this point?

What if the draw gets there, how are we reading the villain so precisely now when we avoid doing so earlier in the hand?

I agree that we do give up value and I am not trying to be argumenative, but I truly feel that draws are the trickier part of the aggro donks range to play against.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:24 PM   #29
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.

Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with KT, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.

The turn is the T. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:30 PM   #30
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
2. The Aggrodonk
Main Weakness: Bets/raises too much.
Typical Stats: 31/25, 40/30, 55/30, 70/45. Look for a very high AF, usually a low fold to cbet, damn near 100% cbet%, particularly a lot of flop aggression. Also, every now and then you'll see a player that's more loose-passive preflop (35/7 and stuff) but turns into an aggrodonk postflop. Usually you can identify an aggrodonk within 20-30 hands without the help of a HUD. They dominate tables and are very conspicuous.
Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river. His weakness is that he bets too much; exploit it by calling down light. If you hit top pair/good kicker, you should check and call every street. Better than that, tend to check/call the flop and turn and then check/raise the river. Be very suspicious when an aggrodonk checks; they tend to be opposite players and when they check, a lot of the time they're (poorly) hiding a monster.
Zeth

I tend to do this and make hero calls. I'm curious to get your perspective though, I made a thread here about calling a aggrodonks bets and I was told I'm a spew, I even gave examples from my most recent session (reposted below) and I was given the consenus that I am leaking money. I think my play is +EV against aggrodonks but I'm curious to get your perspective.

ps sorry in advance if I'm hijacking the thread and taking it in a different direction and being selfish but I thought some RL examples might benefit


Quote:
Originally Posted by McAvoy View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you ... look at the title of my thread. However below is why I make the call (all from last night). However in hindsight, I should have shoved the turn.

MP1: $31.65
MP2: $17.40
CO: $11.50
BTN: $20.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $25.90
UTG: $12.55
UTG+1: $14.50
UTG+2: $7.15

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q A
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, 5 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 2 8 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG+1 raises to $12 all in, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($29.25) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($29.25) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $29.25
Hero shows Q A (a pair of Eights)
UTG+1 mucks T Q
Hero wins $27.80
(Rake: $1.45)


BTN: $25.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $9.05
UTG: $6.00
UTG+1: $10.05
MP1: $14.90
MP2: $38.45
CO: $27.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with 2 2
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) T T 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero calls $2, UTG folds

Turn: ($6.50) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($12.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $7, Hero calls $7

Final Pot: $26.50
Hero shows 2 2 (two pair, Tens and Deuces)
MP2 shows 8 9 (a pair of Tens)
Hero wins $25.25
(Rake: $1.25)


Hero (BB): $31.25
UTG: $25.50
MP: $5.50
CO: $5.00
BTN: $21.55
SB: $24.75

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 4 9
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.50) 7 3 T (3 players)
SB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, BTN folds

Turn: ($4.50) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero calls $4

River: ($12.50) T (2 players)
SB bets $4.25, Hero calls $4.25

Final Pot: $21.00
Hero shows 4 9 (two pair, Tens and Nines)
SB shows 2 7 (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
Hero wins $20.00
(Rake: $1.00)


CO: $28.10
Hero (BTN): $33.30
SB: $19.50
BB: $15.00
UTG: $31.15
UTG+1: $25.00
MP1: $40.95
MP2: $24.65

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with Q K
5 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.00) 6 6 5 (3 players)
SB bets $1.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.50, SB calls $2.25

Turn: ($10.00) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($10.00) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $2.25, Hero calls $2.25

Final Pot: $14.50
Hero shows Q K (a pair of Sixes - King kicker)
SB shows 7 8 (a pair of Sixes)
Hero wins $13.80
(Rake: $0.70)
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:36 PM   #31
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

I'll post my comment on that hand of yours in that thread in a moment, McAvoy.

If all those other hands you just pasted in here were against bona fide aggrodonks--an important if--they were all well played and good examples of proper play to abuse aggrodonks' weakness. Well, except the last one; raising an aggrodonk with king high is just a bad idea in most cases.

It reminds me of another thing: Aggrodonks LOVE to bluff paired boards, repeatedly. Representing trips gives them a hard on, or something.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:40 PM   #32
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
If all those other hands you just pasted in here were against bona fide aggrodonks--an important if--they were all well played and good examples of proper play to abuse aggrodonks' weakness. Well, except the last one; raising an aggrodonk with king high is just a bad idea in most cases.

It reminds me of another thing: Aggrodonks LOVE to bluff paired boards, repeatedly. Representing trips gives them a hard on, or something.
Funny that you mention the last hand, its the one that stands out most to me and I think I played it very well. Like you I figured he was bluffing the paired board but I don't know how many times I've run into them actually having it, so my raise was to serve a purpose, I think if I raise him and he has it, he ships and I can fold.

However him flatting tells me he has air. With K high, I obviously was chicken to bet the turn, which as Martin pointed out, I should have been continuing my line and betting. However his river bet was an obvious final stab at the pot. Looking forward to your reply in the thread, thanks.

Your right about K high though, I've had to let it go many times when the board double pairs etc...
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:45 PM   #33
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

It's interesting food for thought as far as the raise-for-information thing goes. I just like to have something better than king high to do it with, so I'm not accidentally value towning myself if he has a naked ace or 33 or something.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:06 PM   #34
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.

Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with KT, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.

The turn is the T. We improved to two pair, but it wasn't a good card for us; now there's three spades and a couple of straight draw possibilities on the board. The aggrodonk bets 20BB. I advice against raising here, because it's STILL far more likely he has nothing or a very weak made hand, and will fold if we raise (he fears the spades, too, if he doesn't have them himself!) In fact, it's almost certain he's going to shove any non-spade river (and even a spade river sometimes) because he figures us as weak and thinks he can represent a flush/straight and push us off. So there's more value for us just flatting him and then calling his river shove. Sometimes he'll show us a straight/flush and win. More often he'll show us nothing or one pair and lose.
Ok, I agree with this logic entirely, but the question I have is do you pay off a Js river? this is where I feel that (given the strength of the board) even an aggrodonks betting range crushes our calling range (i know we have 2phere but esp if we have tpgk or weaker)

I am not attempting to derail your post, this is quite literally the most coherent logical post I have read in the past several weeks and my guess is that you play and beat FAR higher than unl.

I just want to make the point that we can't be calling down with extremely weak hands given a very very dangerous board. He still has two cards and enough of these combinations will beat us on very dangerous boards

This is literally like 10% of the time against aggro donks (4 str8d 4 flushed boards), not often but still significant enough to mention.

Last edited by Pyro12345; 03-05-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:25 PM   #35
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Thumbs up Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autist18 View Post
A+, would read again.
As a matter of fact, I will.

Thank you.
this, thx Zeth.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:33 PM   #36
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro12345 View Post
I just want to make the point that we can't be calling down with extremely weak hands given a very very dangerous board. He still has two cards and enough of these combinations will beat us on very dangerous boards

This is literally like 10% of the time against aggro donks (4 str8d 4 flushed boards), not often but still significant enough to mention.
Is this not addressed here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:44 PM   #37
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Ok, I agree with this logic entirely, but the question I have is do you pay off a Js river? this is where I feel that (given the strength of the board) even an aggrodonks betting range crushes our calling range (i know we have 2phere but esp if we have tpgk or weaker)
Of course sometimes the board just screws you. The J is the second or third worst card in the deck to hit the river (after the 9 and possibly the A), but that won't happen terribly often, and no, it's not horrible to fold when that happens (hey, if he WAS bluffing it'll just encourage him to keep doing it in future hands, when the board isn't so wet and we can easily call him down). Usually the river will be less dangerous and we can snap him off. We just have to be sure not to tilt/spaz when he does show up with a flush/straight/rivered trips, which he will now and again.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:03 PM   #38
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Thank you for clarification

great post OP

Plz sticky
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:43 PM   #39
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

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Holy carp! One of those is me.
all of those are me:confuse d:
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #40
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Good thread. Nothing I didn't know already, but it's great to see posters helping out the noobs actually trying to learn stuff and helping out us uNLers put in words what is usually just incoherent and nonverbal thoughts in our head.

+1 more for the sticky, I have bookmarked this and will make sure it goes on my blog . Best post in uNL so far IMHO.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:26 PM   #41
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

I posted this hand in BvB before reading this post and used the term "aggrodonk" to describe the villian in this hand.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 57817
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $27.80
Hero (BB): $24.25
UTG: $27.75
UTG+1: $32.05
MP: $6.75
CO: $23.15
BTN: $29.85

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with K 6
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60) K 8 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.10) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($5.60) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3, Hero calls $3

(Aggrodonk had J8o.)
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:16 PM   #42
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

I dunno, maybe he just figured he could get three streets of thin value out of third pair against your 'obvious' flush draw. :P But an aggrodonk will just make that kind of play every other hand, even if he whiffs entirely on the flop. Those guys just keep betting until someone raises or showdown is reached, whichever comes first. The climax of poker for them is watching their opponent fold.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:54 PM   #43
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
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The climax of poker for them is watching their opponent fold.
great OP, and this is possibly the best line of a post i've ever seen
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:32 PM   #44
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
2. The Aggrodonk

Beat them by: Becoming a calling station! This is a very typical mistake I see uNL'ers make, because good poker is aggressive poker and we're just wired and conditioned to loathe the 'Call' button. But you should almost never bet at or raise an aggrodonk before the river.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth View Post
First, the aggrodonk's strength is he beats you over the head with variance, and profits from players that fear variance. Sometimes his draws will come in, and when they do he will sometimes stack you. This is not something to be afraid of. You will make that money back five times over from all the times he stacks or nearly stacks himself bluffing at you, and you can call down with top pair and win.

Suppose the aggrodonk raises to 4BB as usual in MP1, and we flat on the button with KT, and the BB flats too. 100BB effective stacks. The flop comes 78K. There's no way we're folding against the aggrodonk here; we're going to call down our top pair all the way. Aggrodonk bets 8BB, we call, BB folds his 55. Pot is now 28BB. We definitely don't raise here, because the aggrodonk has nothing WAY more often than he has a spade draw or any made hand. We call to encourage him to bluff again.
I feel we should definitively raise aggro-donks before the river, and, specifically, 3b them liberally preflop. Against aggrodonks, hands that make TPGK rise in value, but these hands still don't play too well multiway. E.g., an aggrodonk opens from MP2, it's folded to us on the CO or the BTN with KJo. This is a clear 3b imo, we're ahead of his range and have position. TPGK plays well against this type of player, but we want to raise preflop to get paid for our equity edge and to prevent other players from coming along.

I partially agree with the sentiment "let them hang themselves" but there are exceptions. (i) Raising/3b pre or on the flop can reduce the field to HU; (ii) on drawy boards, raising aggro-donks with TPGK+ may induce them to 3b a worse pair or worse kicker (i.e., they think you're the one on the draw).

In the example you give in the second quote, flatting offers the BB almost 4:1 and you give him some pretty sweet options if he has a str8 draw of FD.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:33 AM   #45
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Going off on a tangent, if this is stickied where could i find it later, rather than bookmarking the page, cheers great article
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Old 03-09-2009, 08:07 AM   #46
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

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Originally Posted by Iestyn View Post
Going off on a tangent, if this is stickied where could i find it later, rather than bookmarking the page, cheers great article
if it gets stickied, it'd be permanently at the top of the page. more likely is that it'll get added to the table of contents in the master sticky CMAR maintains. I certainly hope to see it there; this is a quality post, and funny, too.

good job, zeth.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:01 PM   #47
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

Thank you for such a succinct and funny explanation of the different kinds of fish in the pond. I recognize all the characters and even see too much of myself in a few of them.

I am still new to 2+2 and the online game, but I have been playing poker since the 1960's, (7-stud and 5 card draw, I know, I am old), but this kind of thoughtful information is why I am lurking around 2+2 nearly every day. I know my understanding of the game is increasing at a rate that years of playing the weekly game never produced.

Thanks to all.
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Old 03-10-2009, 05:07 AM   #48
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

OMG.

HAHAHAHAHHHA

I AM DYING

i am screaming

that interview was sooooooooooooooooooo FUNNY its not even funny. aahahhah

zeth 4 PREZ

what a sick soul you are making that **** up

Quote:
Al the Aggrodonk: hes prob blufin but i'm not stupid lol i'm still gonna fold if i have crap unlike him hes a spewtard and calls down with one pair but sometimes if i have one pair i'll just shove over n show him who's boss
this one in particular is 100% spot on. its exactly what he is thinking.

Last edited by airscape; 03-10-2009 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 03-10-2009, 07:14 AM   #49
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

5 stars

<3 Al the Aggrodonk, reminds me of someone I know.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:11 AM   #50
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Re: The Three Basic Fish Types

nice interviews
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