Hey everyone, I need an opinion on my PF shove against a 9/9 player. Is it just a call? Thanks in advance

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 174 BB
SB: 89 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BB: 28.5 BB (VPIP: 34.69, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
UTG: 102.5 BB (VPIP: 11.49, PFR: 8.93, 3Bet Preflop: 2.80, Hands: 351)
UTG+1: 137 BB (VPIP: 18.97, PFR: 15.52, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 58)
MP: 80.5 BB (VPIP: 14.52, PFR: 8.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 64)
MP+1: 172 BB (VPIP: 8.57, PFR: 8.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 70)
MP+2: 191.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
CO: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 5.19, PFR: 2.96, 3Bet Preflop: 5.66, Hands: 139)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 18 BB, Hero raises to 174 BB and is all-in, MP+1 calls 154 BB and is all-in

Flop: (345.5 BB, 2 players) T 9 Q

Turn: (345.5 BB, 2 players) T

River: (345.5 BB, 2 players) 4

MP+1 shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Tens)
(Pre 82%, Flop 77%, Turn 86%)
Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 23%, Turn 14%)
MP+1 wins 333.5 BB

Well played. You can't fold Kings. Don't judge by the result.

Alright, thanks for your reply!

Think you played the hand fine considering we have KK though my only critique is being like 175 BB deep with the vil im not super stoked about ripping KK pre. The sample size is pretty small only being 70 hands but he is playing sub 10% of hands. When you rip it here how often do you expect to get called and be ahead? We beat QQ and AK and chop with KK and lose to AA. If we rip it villain might realize you're incredibly strong and would only be doing this with KK/AK maybe AKs. Remember were 175 BB deep. In this situation if this player is aware enough of that fact he might be able to correctly let QQ go in which case we are only ever beating AK when called which still has 30% equity vs our hand. So I think I would advocate for either a smaller raise or a call in this exact spot. Vs a fishier player id be more inclined for the large raise.

Thanks for your input! That's exactly why I posted this hand. If I was up against a smaller stack < 50 BB I think the shove would've been very much justified to avoid awkwardness on later streets. My concern here was that his 4b-range is probably quite narrow and might just include AK/KK/AA. But I am not sure about this range. Going from there, since I was blocking two of the kings, 8 AK, 6 AA and 1 KK combinations remain. Maybe he folds AK a couple times against a shove this deep which are definitely hands I want to keep in play and ultimately leads me with even worse odds on my side if he calls. The numbers need obiously to be adjusted if QQ is also part of his range but he'd probably play it similiar to AK.

I think I should've 4 bet something around 50 BB in retrospective because this player might have shoved a lot of times against a 5bet with AA. Additionally AK calls more often which decreases the probabilty of him having AA on the flop. It would probably be a 'fit or fold'-situation for AK on the flop and I wouldn't get much value from that hand. Furthermore AK could bluff the flop to give hands like QQ/JJ/AK/AQs (?) a hard time figuring out where they stand. After calling one street if no ace shows up I'd fold if I was facing a turn cbet. Otherwise I'd go for value. In the end it would come down to an educated guess of how often he would call with AK and AA and how often he'd bluff.

Anyway, I am also 'sorting my thoughts' about this hand through this post. I'm still far away from automating this thought process while playing a hand.

The question here really is 'how deep do we need to be before we don't want to get KK in pre flop'

I think the trouble here is that 5 betting 8x4bet can fold out villains entire 4betting range except AA and KK, and you block KK.

You are folding all the hands you get value from, and almost always getting called when you are crushed. Villain has VPIP 20 and PFR 10 which shows the early signs of tight/passive tendencies, even though 30 hands isn't a lot to go by.

Flat 4 bet to keep JJ, QQ and AK in villains range, and pray an A doesn't hit the flop. If it doesn't and you get it in on the flop, you are more likely to go to showdown against QQ, JJ or a bluffing AK - as well as losing to AA.

Hey thank you for your reply! I don't know which opponent you are referring to since none of my opponents has the stats you mentioned in your post. However the opponent I was up against had a VPIP = PFR = 8.57 over 70 hands. This is why I felt it was rather unlikely he'd 4bet with QQ (?) and JJ. If he was a VPIP 20, PFR 10 player I'd completely agree with you.

Call the 4 bet. Very few seemingly tight players are stacking less than KK this deep and outside of a blind battle.

We'll still get stacked on some flops when he has AA, but at least we're keeping his range as wide as possible. On flops like the one we got, we'll probably avoid getting stacked.

Notice that his VPIP and PFR are exactly the same. Also his 3-bet stat is slightly less, but very high in comparison. What does this tell us? Well, possibly, he could be playing a very tight range of hands very aggressively. He probably wants to simplify the game so that he doesn't have to think as much. His hyper aggressiveness will result in him getting into bloated pots without hands strong enough even though his initial open is rather tight.

So he may be tight and fold AJ from EP, but he will play JJ like it is the nuts. 5-bet smaller and watch him go crazy. Too bad he had AA this time.

Thanks for your reply, you are having a point. Yes, the smaller 5-bet would have been the prefered play here. But I am a little concerned that even though he 3bets more lightly his 4bet+ range does not necessarily have to keep up with that. Furthermore if he wanted to simplify his decisions he should have made a bigger 4bet since he was giving me compelling pot odds. He had to expect a call with that size.

I'd much prefer to play against his 4bet range than his shove calling range. You're probably still getting it all in by the river as that flop hits his range really well with queens and tens, but by shoving you're folding out all of the AQ/KQ/AJ/KJ/JJ hands that'll hang in to try and draw out.