Of course nobody really needs help getting shown how to play when you flop top set with no draws out there.

Maybe some people do... My usual course is to fast play, which is what gets the most stacks over the long run.

However in the below hand, all I risk is scaring villain out of the pot if I CBet. Since the jacks are pretty much all out, that doesn't give him much to hit on this board.

Better to hope that he too has an overpair, or give him a chance to bluff with his high broadway cards.

The moral of this story is not that I psychically knew he turned a set (I actually had no clue, was still putting him on AK/AQ), but that:

"maximal extraction is sometimes earned through patience."

I know it can be instinctive to blow up the pot preflop if you get dealt JJ+ after a long string of no hands; you still gotta let the game come to you and not force things.

What setup this hand though? I think the dynamics surrounding hand histories are important. I am giving a lot of action at this table. I had spewed my first buy-in on a river bluff, and before I won this hand, I was still down. I was check-raising flops a lot and 3-betting light and taking it down preflop. General image-- I could be getting out of line. Had punished villain a littlle bit leading up to this had so he was probably feeling a bit heated towards me.

Checking the turn was my biggest decision-- because if he checks it back the the pot is super small. However, checking the turn is the move that hides the strength of my hand so well I don't think villain would in a million years put JJ in my range-- not that we ever expect any reasonable human to fold in villain's spot.

I almost felt sorry for him today... almost.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 114.1 BB (VPIP: 46.15, PFR: 38.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
BB: 190.4 BB (VPIP: 26.88, PFR: 19.35, 3Bet Preflop: 13.79, Hands: 94)
Hero (UTG): 139.5 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 118.4 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has J J

Hero calls 1 BB, CO checks, BTN raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 4 BB, fold

Flop: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 2 4 J
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, BTN bets 9 BB, Hero raises to 20 BB, BTN raises to 45 BB, Hero raises to 74 BB, BTN raises to 113.4 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 39.4 BB

River: (239.3 BB, 2 players) 3

Hero shows J J (Three of a Kind, Jacks)
(Pre 80%, Flop 95%, Turn 98%)
BTN shows 6 6 (Three of a Kind, Sixes)
(Pre 20%, Flop 5%, Turn 2%)
Hero wins 227.4 BB

2.4 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


edit: main reason for flatting PF is villain's tight PFR and to additionally hide the strength of my hand

dear mods, sorry wrong sub-- should go in the 6max sub my bad

Not trying to get anything away from you. Letting him catch up was a great play.

However don’t try to generalize conclusions from a single hand. They are always wrong.

maximal extraction my ass
always raise this pre
if you're going to x/r turn, raise bigger and ship over his 3b

a worrying amount of backwards logic in your thinking process

This.

Open limping with JJ, cmon. Only time I'm ever limping with big PPs is heads up with reads, otherwise you're losing money.

Hmmm I appreciate you taking the time to review this play. Every bit of critique helps. Can I defend a couple of my spots and see what you think?

The only reason I did not 3bet pre is because a 8.33 PFR on a 5max table (villain) is so tight that I actually thought I might be going into the flop dominated with AK being the lowest part of his range.

Now I can see where you are coming from to ship the turn. I am letting all kinds of garbage see the river for cheap. However, I do sometimes check-raise this spot as a bluff, so I feel the need to keep the sizing in mind in terms of getting a return on the times we are bluffing.

Additionally, my particular line in this hand is super unorthodox, so I post it not so much as to show the standard way to play a hand, nor how I usually play it, but to show that the one time I choose to deviate from the standard play and it worked out...

I know not to be too "results oriented" as they say, but sometimes the plays work out as intended and you just have to say "whelp that's cool" but not get too full of yourself because very often I make the dumbest hero calls into the nuts.

Yea, perhaps this hand is the prime example of a wrong way to play a hand and still make a bunch of money. Meh.

I don't think anyone is saying to 3-bet, just open up with a raise. You likely have the best hand preflop and will get calls with weaker hands. You also don't want to play family pots and not be able to narrow down villain's ranges. I see fish limp with AA quite a bit then they try and get clever to "lay a trap" down only to get sucked out by 85os in the BB.

I may have to dig into the hand histories (I only have ~8k at 6max now) to see whether it is + or - EV in the long run, but I kind of want to defend the UTG practice of flatting monsters ONCE in a while. Of course I agree with the ABC play, MOST of the time.

My main reason to do this is because the tables play very tight. If I am playing on a loose table with a high possibility of preflop 3bets, I don't have to worry about this unorthodox UTG flatting maneuver.

I agree that it is quite fishy to call and trap with AA, lol, though I do this. But ONLY UTG. Partially it works at these limits because they have barely just graduated to knowing that AA is just about the only hand that would do this.

So back to my reasoning for flatting UTG with monsters. Because it's often the only way to create a 3Bet pot preflop. These players can be so passive that the don't even 3bet AK or JJ or QQ.

Raises tend to scare everyone away, especially from UTG. Perhaps this is no reason to start playing AA passively, as it could lead to -EV decisions.

Out of my 8k hands at 6max, I have been dealt AA 3 times UTG. 2 times I played it passively by calling. 1 of those times BU raised, I 3BET and took it down. The other time, I flatted a huge CO raise, check-check flop, took it down on the turn.

I think that the standard line builds smaller pots with stronger opponents. When you raise UTG, you ensure villains only enter with strong holdings.

When you flat UTG, you raise their radars for sure, and you allow them to enter with all kinds of junk and realize their equity, but on the same token you can "trap" so to speak. The only legitimate trap is preflop though, because after the flop it is more likely for AA to get trapped.

You are laying the 3bet trap for hands like maybe JJ or even AJ or AQ who are unable to lay it down preflop or even postflop.

Oh well just my thoughts, completely fine if I'm wrong on this, just would like to see some stats and math to prove it.

"When you raise UTG, you ensure villains only enter with strong holdings." Firstly, that's not true at all. There are a wide range of hands people are going to call with. Secondly, what do you think is going to happen when you limp, then 3-bet? Their range is going to be even tighter as you're just screaming you have a huge hand.

You are right, I think I spoke to soon when I said that without thinking it clearly. Appreciate you pointing it out.

You've actually helped me clarify a strange feeling as to why I like my maneuver sometimes.

When I raise UTG (any holdings, but let's say in this case AA or AK), you are right, that callers could be calling pretty wide, but my own holdings are pretty transparent UTG (I think, unless I am playing wide here myself).

So OOP I am betting somewhat blind into the flop. It could be into air, it could be into some medium hands.

When I have AA, I beat everything, so it doesn't matter to me how strong villain's range is, and in this case, I prefer a super strong villain range so that I have a good chance that my aggression will be met with aggression.

Additionally, if I commit to playing passively by flatting the any pre-flop raise (dangerous I know), this passes the torch of initiative to villain. It puts him in a tough spot if I check flop to him, he feels compelled to bet with ATC.

I could still be totally backward in my thinking, but when I have a stronger absolute hand, I like to try to hand the initiative to opponent for maximum stackage.