none of the stuff presented here is stuff people told me other than VanVeen's original quoted post. You know that the ss'ers don't share anything. I put together the hand range charts on my own. I pieced together the more than 2-street game and the 2-street all-in moves on on my own by datamining. I don't think that is the same as anyone telling me anything. Also, it isn't hard to datamine and see players open-pushing the SB with some curious hands. So, ummm....yeah as far as anyone "telling" me anything.

And guess what, the games haven't died. Very little has changed.

$$$$ is a false idol anyway (I know that's an unpopular opinion around here, but most of us live in the biggest period of luxury in human history) ... there are many things that one can do for $$$$. Part of the reason I pursued poker is the intellectual challenge it represents. What can be more satisfying than 'teasing out' the simple strategy that a handful of players are doing to consistently win small amounts of $$$$ in a game known for its complexity?


ty though
it's clear there are still a few things that I am missing from your post. I will continue to investigate and datamine you and the other successful shortstackers.

Plus, is it any surprise I gave the info away? Before I was PM'ed back in March or April, I believe my lasts posts on the subject of shortstacking was that it needed to be eliminated and sites should goto a 40 min buyin. Is anyone surprised that I later 'gave away' what I knew?

Since I can now make my modest, happy living playing 24 tables of fullstack with little stress, I'm fine giving this info away. Stress is really a killer.

We each choose what we want to prioritize in life. I think I just put the intellectual pursuit of the game a little higher. It seems to me that nearly every strategy post in the history of 2p2 would be a mistake according to your standards.

ty...that is the thread
ignore punter11235's first post unless you want a NIT's opening range, which is sometimes helpful to have

BigJim and AZK give really good ranges

one can find similar threads for fullring

Though BigJIm and AZK differ, the hand ranges to steal verse their range are nearly identical. The only differences will be a hand or two that are near zero EV, so not a big deal in the long run.

yeah...it was really the switch to 24 tabling on one site that made me far less dependent on shortstacking for the little poker I play--thus, no need to protect my bucket and incentive to give it away

it's ridiculously tough to rathole and table hop over 15 tables

my hourly playing fullstack increased without the stress level increasing....I really don't handle downswings well and stress is one of the #1 killers in our society, so I play way overrolled at very modest limits.

dude, wtf? I never said this. Also, from me talking to other shortstackers you're spouting bull [censored]. Much of this is stuff that others have told you directly and in confidence that you would keep it quiet. Also, you blasted me for having my location set at shortstacking and bitched me out constantly for even the slightest mention of shortstacking as recently as a August or September. This post is so [censored] hypocritical that its a joke. Unf***ingreal. You're such a joke.

Free kurosh.

sorry....was responding to Kurosh, not you


other shortstackers have bad memories....they did not tell me [censored] other than to look into 6max. I was more than forthcoming with all of them and was one of the few who would share. A few have made alot of money from my simple advice. I'm disappointed that they would be so upset with me... so it goes.

EDIT: I firmly believe that anyone I chatted with about shortstacking will not be worse off in the longrun with this stuff posted.


good job trying to derail the thread and get it locked


EDIT: I've always had problems with the whole shorties v fullies arguments on this board and didn't know whether to post or not post. I decided to post, partly because I'm tired of the argument rehashing over and over. Let's see if it is a big deal.

HU4ROLLZ memory style with choo choo, kurosh, me and whoever else wants to participate?

couldnt you just use you datamining database to get an even more accurate range for different full stack regs from diff positions???? made put it in their note box or somthing. Or place a certain color code that full tilt allows (but stars does not). I know that i accually used to have same stats at many others but my specific hand ranges were wheighted differently (specifically sc's and off suit broadway hands. as well as positions in general)

quit trying to derail

the advice I got from other shortstackers summed up to zero other than to look at 6max games

I don't know how HU4rollz will change that


CalledDownLight,
what do you personally know? Did you ever share anything with me? Do you know the exact conversations I've had with other shorties? Imsakidd basically started to talk with me hoping to get info out of me. I did give him alot. I datamined and sent on the hands and my observations on 40putts and kurosh among others. I pointed out the minraises and how it could be good in theory. I constructed huge restealing charts and sent them along. When it came to the point where I was stuck and wanted an opinion, the response was I'll coach you for $100+ per hour... lollerskates. As far as Kurosh, I've talked to him via PMs once or twice and had a side convo on IRC once. It was clear he just wanted to know what I knew and had no attention of sharing any info. He was kind of upset that it was rather easy to just datamine much of his play. Other than that, I gave one free coaching lesson via AIM to a poster who has helped me out in the past in a different area of gambling. IIRC, the coaching lesson has netted him many, many thousands. The lesson I gave to this player was actively campaigned against by Imsakidd. Imsakidd also got on this poster and actively encouraged him not to share any later info with me. I tried to contact a few other shorties via PM and got no response.

There, I've publicly put out my entire relationships to all of 2p2 so we can just move pass the BS attempted derailment of a thread by shortstackers afraid that they will lose their bucket.

that would work, but it's kind of unnecessary

as long as you're close, the ev calcs will not be off by that much

the biggest thing of note is to realize that some players favor pairs and/or suited connectors while others favor big cards in putting together their ranges. THis will have some effect and the ranges you play should adjust accordingly. A player note seems like a good idea. Mainly, I've just grown to know this stuff after playing thousands of hands verse some regs.

Actually, this is why I like this thread. I want to study short-stacking because it seems like a "solvable" problem. I hope to understand how to analyze poker problems in general by applying it to this "simple" case. I don't know if I'll SS much unless I'm trying to clear a bonus or something, but I know I'll learn tons just from doing the homework.

IMO, I don't think this thread is different from any other strategy discussion, in that you're likely to mess it up if you implement it without really understanding it.

Thanks for sharing!

anyone interested in setting up a group to shortstack stars for a couple of days? just to ruin the games so bad that stars will have to raise the buyin to 40 or 50bb.

That said, I don't understand why anyone spends that much time in shortstacking, I started poker 10 months ago and make 10k+ for the last three months now at 200-400NL. If you ever want to make a lot of money you really don't want to waste valueable time playing shortstacked (imo.)

now carry on, I'm not blaiming shortstackers because they just use the rules of the pokerrooms but I just don't get why they don't spend their time learning fullstacked poker.

you do realize quite a few shortstackers, the ones mentioned here, are making 10k+ per month, right?

ADDENDUM: THE MYTH OF HIGH VARIANCE

The problem is thinking in relative terms. If you think in terms of buyins, it's going to seem hellacious as the 1/5 stack moves back and forth alot. However, one should compare to big buyins and playing fullstack. The swings are miniscule then. Like I said, I suck at shortstacking. Yet, here is a graph of August where I ran below average (like 1.2ptbb/100 when it's normally 2). I printed this graph out and have it posted on the wall behind my monitor to remind me what a crappy month looks like. All in all, it looks like a good limit player's graph.




notice how the biggest downswings compare to playing fullstack

LOL bottomset, I guess Im one of the cats u cheated with I maybe short stacked like <10 times this whole year

I guess i'm the big villain now?

Without going into a long tirade, I think its kinda ridiculous that you're writing up all this [censored] that was said to you in confidence. I guess you are the kind of person to stab people in the back after you have a mutual trust with them. Obviously your choice, not one I would make.

Imsa,

get bent

yours truly
DLM

oops...guess there will be no drama without me participating

damn...that could've gotten good

I dont know who DLM is.

I'm sure you are deeply offended I choose to pursue a different form of poker than you. Sorry?

Oh yeah MT2R i'm not really sure why you are so pissed at me now. You never once mentioned to me that you were mad about this stuff.

We probably could have resolved whatever it is that has apparently been pissing you off for a while, but I guess you have chosen this route.

Sorry if you're offended or whatever, just wish we could have settled it without you making me seem like a bigger douchebag than I really am.

I'm not pissed.... not even mad....

this (posting about shortstacking) has nothing to do with you at all

Are you upset that I was gone and wasn't giving you enough attention?

This is kinda funny though. Sucks for the full stackers, but it won't make much of a difference in my WR. Most choo chooers start out, realize they suck, don't properly adapt full stack ideas to choo choo etc etc etc

This is pretty much a reprint of WA data though he did post my part about open shoving in the SB (that isn't even the most important idea to take away). Speaking of which... That reminds me... I have some games to choo choo.

MTTR plz make your datamined hand available. I think we should all think tank the [censored] outa this. IMO LDO ***** YSSCKY

I started a grease fire in a McDonald's once.

I threw a match in the cook's hair.

NT=T,
my guess is this is all just some attempt to derail the thread and get it locked and/or deleted.

Some people just don't get that this has nothing to do with them. It's just a thread about a poker playing style that is +ev. I'm helping more 2p2ers play in that style. I'm helping more 2p2ers adjust to that style. I hope to improve at both as a result as well. (That is kind of the point of the strategy forums, right?)

I also think that either this info will cause the world to become all shortstackers and force the sites to bump up the min buyin, or it will justify that there is no real issue and thus we can stop all the threads arguing over the shortstacking secrecy. Of course, I am a selfish prick as I expect most professional gamblers are, thus I did not post this until I was sure I could maintain the same hourly doing other things.

I regret that i've offended a few people. They thought the info was important. I no longer do... not a big deal and I feel no reason for this to become a dramabomb.


please to be ending thread derailment now and back onto what we still need to get at in terms of shortstacking and defending verse the shortstack. BTW-I hope most realize that this thread is doing both. Lots of the shortstack 'lessons' are directly what one needs to know to counter the shortstack.