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Old 11-14-2007, 10:54 PM   #176
poincaraux
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
software question:

is there any cool tool that will allow one to see how every single possible hand (all 169) do verse a range of hands?

it's tedious to manually type each hand v range

it would be a cool pokerstove add-on to be able to put in a range and then see the ev of every single hand verse that range
Do you mean like this? I made that for vs. the top 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 90% and 100% (random) of hands, and I could easily make it vs. any particular range of your choice. It takes a while to make each chart, though.

This is all very interesting, but I'm surprised to see it all laid out in public. What made you decide to do it?
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:02 PM   #177
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

LESSON 5: A 2-Street Game Can Be Powerful

Alright, I posted earlier on not playing the 2-street game. For the most part, that is right. However, my datamining and the math have shown me that sometimes a 2-street game can bring down havoc upon your enemies. For this, I'd like to look at an example from the book Kill Everyone. On p. 99, they start a section "Big Pushes on the Flop." Picture this, pot is 1800 on the flop and it's heads-up. The first to act is the small blind with 5400. The small blind pushes allin on As7h2c flop. What should the other player call with? If the latter player has a range of 22+, A2s+, A5+, K9+, QT+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s+, it's positive ev for the small stack to push any two cards if the later player needs AT+ to call. Of course, that is an extreme scenario involving any two cards verse a pretty wide range that doesn't call light. The key here is that this same concept can be used to exploit certain players. Some players just nit up post flop. How hard is it to push two to three times the pot all-in on the flop when one catches any part of it (one-pair, OESD, flush draw, even an over card and inside straight draw) and put the pressure on light callers?
Don't pull this move too often, but it's awful nice to mix in the bag of tricks. It works real well when you'll pull the same move with AA preflop.


But, this gets at another point--know the equities of certain ranges on different types of flops. Trust me, some players will take shots at the shortstacker who clams up postflop. OTOH, some fullies clam up as well and are highly exploitable. If you see someone who folds to a flop bet 70%+ of the time, you know they have high standards for moving on in the hand. Of course, guys do goofy things when shorties get involved, so pay attention to see if they buck their normal playing style.

There are a myriad of examples that one can go through year. One cannot go through all of them. However, just study a few to get something of a feel for the equities.

This kind of ties back into the Vanveen quote in the first lesson
Quote:
If we're really ambitious we can analyse flops and maybe just call sometimes. Tedious, but fairly easy.
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:27 PM   #178
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

This is about as far as I've gotten in over-arching shortstacking theory and execution---This seems to be all it boils down to above what is commmonly known

notice that none of this stuff is that revolutionary
it's just a matter of piecing together everything we know from different types of poker and seeing how it applies in these unique circumstances

I might remember a lesson or two, but I expect this thread to get more to specifics from my end

I hope others share over-arching themes that they come across

for fun, The Hit and Run thread is what started me on shortstacking

I believe Stars 25-50 shortstackers started Imsakidd and Curtains

How to play dirrtySanchez shows how important blind stealing is even for tighter players
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:49 PM   #179
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
software question:

is there any cool tool that will allow one to see how every single possible hand (all 169) do verse a range of hands?

it's tedious to manually type each hand v range

it would be a cool pokerstove add-on to be able to put in a range and then see the ev of every single hand verse that range
Do you mean like this? I made that for vs. the top 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 90% and 100% (random) of hands, and I could easily make it vs. any particular range of your choice. It takes a while to make each chart, though.

Wow...that's above and beyond what I was thinking.
I was more along the lines of the chart's that were in Andy Bloch's preflop chapter in the Full Tilt Tournament Strategy Guide where it listed how each team did v top 10%, top 25%, top 50%, etc.

like
AA 81.31%
KK 74.96%
QQ 71.12%
and so on

v various ranges, such as the one BigJim posted for 6max TAG UTG

Quote:

This is all very interesting, but I'm surprised to see it all laid out in public. What made you decide to do it?
many, many, many reasons
***with 24 tables, I now have the same earn with little grief playing full that I did shorting--same point on risk v reward v challenge graph

-----I'm kind of a unique cat in that I don't really care too much about the money in poker other than it meaning I don't have to get a real job. I play low stacks. So low that most are shocked to find out. I use economies of scale. I'm fine with the trade-off. I stress too much when I play real limits and stress will kill me in the long-run much more than not making a few more bones. I'm convinced that most of us live in luxury. There has never been a time of such riches.


***sick of getting grief from 2p2ers who I have personal respect for over not sharing my info

***sick of the whole sharing info will destroy the games debate---let's see if it will

***i don't think it will adversely effect those who do short that i know in the long-run

***the info is coming out sooner or later anyway

***maybe the games will get flooded and sites will move up the buyin
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:14 AM   #180
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I can't see shortstacking discussions having much impact on the game overall.

What percentage of online poker players are going to see this thread anyway?
Of those who see this thread, how many are going to be interested in becoming shortstackers if they aren't already, and how many of the current *bad* shortstackers are going to suddenly become effective just by reading such advice?

A very small percentage in both cases IMO.

If it were that easy for the average Joe to absorb the info, they'd all be much better already, regardless of which stack size they use (I think there's a big tendency on this site, which seems to consist of decidedly above average people, to either underestimate the difficulty of the game, or overestimate the average intelligence of the population...or possibly both!)

Worst case scenario...some great info gets out into the wide world and appears on a multitude of "make money at poker, guaranteed" sites, the hordes copy it playbook style and, because they're too stupid/lazy/stubborn to adapt, give a big edge to those who take the time to study their playbook. I can't see it scaring the fish off, any more than having large numbers of multitabling regulars scares them off now.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:26 AM   #181
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

random50, a huge percentage of the online players that put in any meaningful number of hands at reasonable stakes will see this thread. I bet that the players that play 80% of the hands at 1/2 FR on stars read this forum.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:31 AM   #182
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

So every full ring table at $1/2 has 7 twoplustwo reading regulars on it? If that's the case, then I'm very impressed so many of you are able to make money.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:38 AM   #183
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
So every full ring table at $1/2 has 7 twoplustwo reading regulars on it? If that's the case, then I'm very impressed so many of you are able to make money.
thats pretty much standard nowadays
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:46 AM   #184
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:

Min buy in 23bb's. I am willing to compromise.

The last post in that thread. Awesome. Freakin' Illuminati.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:59 AM   #185
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
So every full ring table at $1/2 has 7 twoplustwo reading regulars on it? If that's the case, then I'm very impressed so many of you are able to make money.
thats pretty much standard nowadays
yep...shocking that they and the 100NL grinders stick to that instead of swallowing their pride and just making more money with the same variance by shortstacking 400NL 6max
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:10 AM   #186
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
So every full ring table at $1/2 has 7 twoplustwo reading regulars on it? If that's the case, then I'm very impressed so many of you are able to make money.
thats pretty much standard nowadays
Really? Then I am indeed impressed. Sounds pretty -EV to me!
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:14 AM   #187
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

so you would never short stack full ring? I thought curtains etc were short stacking full ring? Maybe I was wrong.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:26 AM   #188
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
so you would never short stack full ring? I thought curtains etc were short stacking full ring? Maybe I was wrong.
curtains and I are 100% 6m. I have been considering adding fr lately
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:50 AM   #189
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

CHOO CHOO

I need to go to sleep.
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:11 AM   #190
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Ok so im reading through this stuff and god damn i was sooo wrong, I mean yeah alot of it i already knew. but there are extra little details in their that im sure could really make a diff. somtimes when im board im gonna try ssing a pissload of tables to see how it goes.

I cant believe you put this stuff out for free honestly. It is still very intuitive but the way you presented the information thus far really helps me "get it". I still hate short stackers.

PS= I take back the "you suck at poker" comment because you are obviously very poker smart. Like i said before i think putting this out here wont really affect me, but it may hurt your earn man. But since your playing full now ne ways who cares!
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:45 AM   #191
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
many, many, many reasons
***with 24 tables, I now have the same earn with little grief playing full that I did shorting--same point on risk v reward v challenge graph
Hmmmm

Are you not shorting anymore because you can play 24 tables full but not 24 tables as a shortie?
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:59 AM   #192
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
random50, a huge percentage of the online players that put in any meaningful number of hands at reasonable stakes will see this thread. I bet that the players that play 80% of the hands at 1/2 FR on stars read this forum.
Level?

From the bottom of this post-

"Topic views: 2890

17 registered and 13 anonymous users are browsing this forum. "

At this moment in time Pokerstars has 44,423 players online.

OK so the "regs" will make up larger proportion of both the readership of this forum AND also a larger proportion of the hands played at meaningful stakes - but do these figures not suggest that we can pretty much discuss what we like without worrying about educating fish?

BTW - Thanks for the posts MTTR, I will be printing out and adding to my folder even though I dont shortstack regular.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:26 AM   #193
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
so you would never short stack full ring? I thought curtains etc were short stacking full ring? Maybe I was wrong.
curtains and I are 100% 6m. I have been considering adding fr lately
please do fish

I'll 2.5X your BB and fiddle with my ranges all over your face
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:29 AM   #194
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I confidently predict the games of yesterday will be EXACTLY the same as the games in a month's time.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:40 AM   #195
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Link to the thred MT2R refers to in setting a hand range for 6Max

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&amp;vc=1
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:05 AM   #196
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

There was no reason to ban me. People insult others a lot worse than I did with no provocation all the time. Oh well, it's only the 5834th time I've been banned.

Again, MT2R, you're an idiot. Yeah, I'm mad because you took my opportunity for giving away information?? lol. I am probably the best shortstacker out there. I don't give a [censored] about what people think or attention whoring. That's why I quit posting any results, quit posting in my blog and have multiple accounts. I care about my bottom line. Since you don't make any $, I guess attention whoring is all that's left for you. Good job giving away information that you managed to get other people to tell you. Now your 2p2 rep is credible. Congrats. Maybe one day you will be an internet celebrity like me and El Diablo!

I'm not going to get into more of why you're an idiot because like I've been telling all of you idiots privately for months, the more posts about shortstacking - REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT - the worse for everyone. This was a fantastic piece of LOOK AT ME I AM SO SMART. All we need now is some other idiot to chime in and hint at what you're missing so everyone can think he is so smart too. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:20 AM   #197
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

ban?

The thing is, Kurosh, what exactly is the point of you?
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:11 PM   #198
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Topic views: 2890
I dunno about you guys, but I'm pretty sure I count for at least 20 of those topic views.

But then, I'm a page refreshing nit

K
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:15 PM   #199
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
There was no reason to ban me. People insult others a lot worse than I did with no provocation all the time. Oh well, it's only the 5834th time I've been banned.

Again, MT2R, you're an idiot. Yeah, I'm mad because you took my opportunity for giving away information?? lol. I am probably the best shortstacker out there. I don't give a [censored] about what people think or attention whoring. That's why I quit posting any results, quit posting in my blog and have multiple accounts. I care about my bottom line. Since you don't make any $, I guess attention whoring is all that's left for you. Good job giving away information that you managed to get other people to tell you. Now your 2p2 rep is credible. Congrats. Maybe one day you will be an internet celebrity like me and El Diablo!

I'm not going to get into more of why you're an idiot because like I've been telling all of you idiots privately for months, the more posts about shortstacking - REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT - the worse for everyone. This was a fantastic piece of LOOK AT ME I AM SO SMART. All we need now is some other idiot to chime in and hint at what you're missing so everyone can think he is so smart too. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

2 days now.

Kurosh, will you knock it off please?
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:29 PM   #200
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
There was no reason to ban me. People insult others a lot worse than I did with no provocation all the time. Oh well, it's only the 5834th time I've been banned.

Again, MT2R, you're an idiot. Yeah, I'm mad because you took my opportunity for giving away information?? lol. I am probably the best shortstacker out there. I don't give a [censored] about what people think or attention whoring. That's why I quit posting any results, quit posting in my blog and have multiple accounts. I care about my bottom line. Since you don't make any $, I guess attention whoring is all that's left for you. Good job giving away information that you managed to get other people to tell you. Now your 2p2 rep is credible. Congrats. Maybe one day you will be an internet celebrity like me and El Diablo!

I'm not going to get into more of why you're an idiot because like I've been telling all of you idiots privately for months, the more posts about shortstacking - REGARDLESS OF THE CONTENT - the worse for everyone. This was a fantastic piece of LOOK AT ME I AM SO SMART. All we need now is some other idiot to chime in and hint at what you're missing so everyone can think he is so smart too. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

2 days now.

Kurosh, will you knock it off please?
time to lock and delete
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