M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[AceCR9]

Okay, Kurosh can take a day off to cool his boots.

Next one gets 2 days, and so on and so forth.

db

would you still do this if you weren't a SS'er?

[MyTurn2Raise]

MT2R: You're a [censored] idiot. I'm sick of you idiots posting info about shortstacking to try and get attention. You're not good. You're not cool. You're probably not even a winning shortstacker at decent limits. Shut. the. [censored]. up.



Kursoh is getting a day off for posting this - so don't follow his example - diebitter

never said I was good
just a grinder trying to improve

[MyTurn2Raise]

mttr didnt really say much in his post, im sure a monkey could figure out what he just wrote, its not very complicated or counter intuitive.

I KNOW THAT 6MAX SHORTSTACKING IS MORE PROFITABLE. but its ok cause you can hop from table to table and avoid them (which is my first determinate of table selection). I really dont mind you posting this stuff cause its pretty much common knowledge to anyone whos a reasonably intelligent poker mind (that isnt stuck in 2p2 groupthink mode). Go ahead, all that will happen is the multitablers will become more taggish, and eventually nulify your edge due to rake. They will also adjust well to your limping range and force you to make mistakes much like a tourney donk. and since you probably arent the best postflop players then it will chomp out even more of your small edge creating just another higer variance way to make some rakeback wooooohooooo.

edit to say- I really do like MTTR even though he does shorstack and is posting this stuff.

these will come up in later lessons

the variance isn't that high
high in terms of short buys, but small compared to any fullstack playing method

postflop mistakes can hardly be huge when playing with a 20BB stack

[MyTurn2Raise]

Nice post MT2R. I guess your paranoia was warranted. It's awesome how people say "this information is useless" and "it's going to ruin the game" in the same post. Gold.

yep...that's the whole point
if the info is so valuable, someone would have stepped forward and paid for my 'playbook'

however, no one did, so I figured it was fine to start posting stuff as the info had no value

[MyTurn2Raise]

software question:

is there any cool tool that will allow one to see how every single possible hand (all 169) do verse a range of hands?

it's tedious to manually type each hand v range

it would be a cool pokerstove add-on to be able to put in a range and then see the ev of every single hand verse that range

[MyTurn2Raise]

LESSON 1A: The Limp Resteal

This ties in with the initial resteal lesson and is much more valuable at fullring but occassionally comes up at 6max.

Alot of this comes from the Slotboom method for shortstacking PLO that he mentioned in his book, Secrets of Professional Pot Limit Holdem. Also of note is a recent Diebitter observation in a thread in this forum (sorry--no linky--just recall from memory) that many shortstackers at fullring seem to be limping mid pairs and Ace-big hands upfront to push over a late position raise.

Often, you'll be upfront in a game and there will be an aggressive limper/blind stealer left to act after you, especially at higher limits. Here, you can take a chance of limping and hoping to have the opportunity to shove over that late aggressor's likely light raise.

One, even with a shortstack, it's not fun to play pots OOP.

Two, a raise from you upfront will make it less likely for a late aggressor to reraise as he should know you are pot-committed with an awful large range of your initial raising range.

Three, the math is very similar and you should already have some good training.

Four, in fullring games you often gain the benefit of additional dead money with limpers inbetween you and the light raiser and/or a weak blind call of the late position raiser.

[Makonnen]

Isn't shortstacking specifically dependent on LAG opponents? If so, this is just another turn of the screw in the development of the game, and I wonder if part of the discussion of PFR in Renton's thread comes into play: that is, does the presence of shortstacking mean that limpylimpy becomes a more crucial part of the game?

Also, LOL at the ChickenLittleSkyIsFallingDon'tRevealTheSecret content.

[MyTurn2Raise]

Isn't shortstacking specifically dependent on LAG opponents? If so, this is just another turn of the screw in the development of the game, and I wonder if part of the discussion of PFR in Renton's thread comes into play: that is, does the presence of shortstacking mean that limpylimpy becomes a more crucial part of the game?

Also, LOL at the ChickenLittleSkyIsFallingDon'tRevealTheSecret content.

if someone isn't blind stealing 30% of the time, it better be because a competent shortstacker is in one of the blinds

it's more than LAGs, it hurts aggressive poker in general because they lose at the game of chicken

[CalledDownLight]

Okay, Kurosh can take a day off to cool his boots.

Next one gets 2 days, and so on and so forth.

db

why is this banworthy?

[Makonnen]

if someone isn't blind stealing 30% of the time, it better be because a competent shortstacker is in one of the blinds.

But that shouldn't be a source of fear. In fact, it should be pretty exploitable, since the SS range is absolutely predictable, right?

This is part of the evolution where I think FR players do have an edge: SS don't have a lot of room for error in their play--if they deviate much at all from the strict math, the pendulum swings back. So, if you know someone is a skilled SS, you should be able to figure out their range almost exactly, and given the amount of $ that will be in the pot once they shove back over you, your calling range isn't all that thin, no?

[carol-ann]

just complain to your sites you play at about shortstacking

write them e-mails, explain how they ruin the enjoyment of the game for both regulars and fish

threaten to take your business elsewhere

[1p0kerboy]

why is this banworthy?

You're joking, right?

[MyTurn2Raise]

why is this banworthy?

mainly because it is massive trolling IMO

he's a shorstacker who I datamined to learn many things and once claimed he could ruin online poker by posting his guide to shortstacking yet calls out another poster for being an attention whore because that poster is actually sharing information

my guess is he thinks his bucket is being stolen, but I don't want this thread to devolve into personal attacks now that information is actually coming out. So, I apologize and really have no idea why Kurosh is so against my posts.

[1p0kerboy]

Questions for the teacher:

If we're constantly limp/pushing with our 20bb stack, isn't the LAG going to pick up on this and not raise when we enter the pot?

Are we ever limp/folding? If so, what kind of situations are we doing it in and with what hands?

On a personal note, why did you stop shortstacking?

EDIT: One more. Do you reload back to 20bb if you fall below? If not, why not?

[Ulkis]

I hope this thread gets locked soon.

[1p0kerboy]

I hope this thread gets locked soon.

Why?

[MyTurn2Raise]

Questions for the teacher:

If we're constantly limp/pushing with our 20bb stack, isn't the LAG going to pick up on this and not raise when we enter the pot?

yes---use the limp-resteal in great situation and sparingly...that's why it wasn't a stand alone lesson, but more of an addendum

Are we ever limp/folding? If so, what kind of situations are we doing it in and with what hands?

yep...limp -folding sucks which is why one shouldn't use the limp reraise too often. You have to play with a table of real morons to get away with it alot. However, against 12-tabling HUDbot SLAGs, you get away with it much more often than you think. Ummmm....you definitely want to fold if you see someone with a tighter range get involved and whatnot.

On a personal note, why did you stop shortstacking?

I still shortstack sometimes.

EDIT: One more. Do you reload back to 20bb if you fall below? If not, why not?

nope...hardly ever reload

more advantages come my way playing with an even smaller stack

plus, less button clicks and can double up twice before finding a new table and whatnot

[1p0kerboy]

In regards to keeping a stack at 20BB and 100NL:

A $40 pot gives you a fequent player point. Supernovas get 3.5, giving you an additional value of 5.25c/hand. Not to mention the additional value of reaching the milestone bonuses and whatnot.

What is a good ATS range for a good shortstacker?

What is a good ptbb/100 for a good shortstacker?

[Ulkis]

Why?

It's getting too long and repetitive and there will be no end result or conclusion. (and I can't help myself and stop reading it )

[MyTurn2Raise]

In regards to keeping a stack at 20BB and 100NL:

A $40 pot gives you a fequent player point. Supernovas get 3.5, giving you an additional value of 5.25c/hand. Not to mention the additional value of reaching the milestone bonuses and whatnot.

What is a good ATS range for a good shortstacker?

What is a good ptbb/100 for a good shortstacker?

ironically, shorstacking seems to work better at higher levels mainly due to the restealing effect verse more aggressive opponents

as far as ATSB range, that ties into a future upcoming lesson

as far as winrate, rumor has it that Kurosh was running at over 4ptbb/100 in pokerev adjusted winnings at 1000NL 6max on FTP

most the datamines I've seen have the best shorties running in the 2.5 to 3 range

[MyTurn2Raise]

oh yeah, keep in mind that ATSB range will always vary greatly with the characteristics of the blinds when doing exploitive play

some guys that defend less than 10% and don't adjust are crying out for you to steal with any two cards

[1p0kerboy]

Teacher:

In the future, as more and more players are shortstacking, do you think sites will be forced to raise the minimum buy-in?

[MyTurn2Raise]

Teacher:

In the future, as more and more players are shortstacking, do you think sites will be forced to raise the minimum buy-in?

one could only hope, yet I've seen nothing from the sites thus far to suggest they'll do that

[phydaux]

SS don't have a lot of room for error in their play--if they deviate much at all from the strict math, the pendulum swings back.

This is exactly why I LOL so much about the fear of short stackers. Just like how most poker players are bad players, most people playing the short stack are bad short stackers.

[phydaux]

one could only hope, yet I've seen nothing from the sites thus far to suggest they'll do that

Didn't I hear that Negreanu was going to try to have the minimum buy-in at Stars raised?

Most people seemed to think that that would be worse for the game than the short stacking it would prevent, since most of the scared money/bad shorties would go broke more quickly.

Meh. The good LAGs beat the TAGs. The good shorties beat the LAGs. Everybody nits up. Rock, Paper, Scissors. Eventually NL cash dies off and we all follow the fish to Omaha lowball or whatever.