M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[SimaoMacaco]

I guess I'm outta the loop. I don't get it.

It took me a while.. and some help.. bottomset is cleva

[HesseJam]

Ulkis,

Yes, you are correct when you say that poker is hard. But the shortie isn't playing poker. He's playing a differant game called "shove."

It's hand range vs hand range. Mr. McShove buys in for 20bb at a table where everyone else had 100bb. (That's the key point - That everyone else had a big stack and he doesn't.)

The big stackers are, for the most part, playing hands that rely on implied odds - Hands like SCs & suited gappers, small pairs, suited aces & kings, etc. Hand distrobution indicated that when a big stack enters a pot for a raise or calls a raise, it is far more likely that he's playing one of these implied odds hands rather than a big pair.

The shortie isn't playing implied odds hands. He's playing hands like AK, AQ, KQ & JJ+. And remember - most flops miss most players. So when the shortie shoves on the flop, even unimproved, the vast majority of the time he is likely to either have his opponent crushed or be just a very small dog.

So hand range plus fold equity makes it profitable in the long run for the shortie to shove any flop that he sees head's up. If you don't belive that, then why is your c-bet percentage so high?

Yes, a good deep stack player can adjust his range and start to play top pair poker vs the shortie. But in doing so he's offering great implied odds to the other deep stack players at the table.

And that is the advantage that the shortie had over the deep stack player. The deep stack player has to play with the specter of the other deep stack players at the table felting him. He has to watch out for reverse implied odds and play four streets of poker.

Mr. McShove doesn't have to do that. By playing Shove, he only has to play two streets and doesn't have to worry about odds at all.



[i](If any group of hard core limit hold'em players ever got it into their heads to kill internet NL cash and drive all the fish back to limit hold'em, they could open a "boiler room," train 12-16 players to work in shifts, multi-tabling 16 tables of NL cash 24/7 on all the major poker sites across all limits. It wouldn't take long for a "MIT Poker Team" to kill the game and drive off the fish.)

Kudos from me to you. Very well expressed.

[diebitter]

Phydaux

well said!


There is another reason I SS sometimes that I haven't mentioned before, and that is sometimes I'm in the mood to 1- or 2-table, and can't find an obviously juicy table.

Here I load up the first 12-tables (or 24 now, I guess) with the highest plrs/flop, and just play them for 15 minutes or so. This gives me enough stats often to target the marks on one or two decent tables and close the rest down. If it doesn't, I just SS till I find something.

[Steelerman]

So is it stupid to think that a strategy as simple as raising AK, AQ, KQ & JJ+ and pushing all flops would be at least breakeven?

Edit: I guess adding in some kind of blind stealing strategy would be the way to go as the blinds would kill your profit if you only played this narrow of a range.

[ImsaKidd]

Its funny because hes a really nice kidd in real life

[ImsaKidd]

I skimmed through this thread and I gotta say most of the stuff is ridiculous.

1: Your potential profit wth ss'ing is limited. You arent going to approach the winrates of the best fullstackers. You can play higher and with less variance than your 100bb stakes. Compared to 100bb, it is much easier to adjust when moving up.

2: Anyone explaining SS strategy in a few sentences is pretty far off base. This includes Ed Miller. Any sort of grossly simplified strategy like "play AQ+, TT+, add 88+ late position" is just bad. You have to put in a LOT of time with pokerstove, as well as playing hands so you identify spots where you can improve.

3: Game quality. Even if whatever info is posted creates a bunch of .25ptbb/100 guys, the effect on game quality would be nasty. This isnt really something anyone should want.

I'm not real sure on why MT2R wants to post this kinda stuff, seems counterproductive. I'm also not sure how accurate what he posts would be, I guess I can evaluate that when it comes up.

[ImsaKidd]

Oh yeah, i've been contemplating adding some FR tables to my mix, so maybe i'll have a better idea of how accurate these suggestions are after I play more FR.

[King Spew]

I guess I'm outta the loop. I don't get it.

BT2
AceCR8
nation

[ImsaKidd]

Cry me a river
Honestryan
Oakrdrzfan
Osh

Calleddownlight
Hklm8383
Oah(s)
Okerboy(1p)


I took some creative license with names, sorry.

[phydaux]

This is something that I frankly don't understand.

We have guys on this site like pokey & Cry Me A River who make masterful posts again and again that diligent members can read, discuss and use to become skilled poker players.

And no one has a problem with that. In fact, that's exactly why we all come here. To improve our poker play.

But when it comes to short stack information, some people become down right paranoid.

Why are we afraid to help shorties improve their skills, but we bend over backward to help out full stackers?

It doesn't make sense. Either we help other players, or we don't. Either there are enough fish to feed us all, or there aren't.

To you guys who are paranoid and "hold back" in discussions of short stacking, let me ask you this:

Do you also hold back and not share everything you know in discussions of full stack poker? If that's true, would you ever pass along wrong strategy or information, so you can "keep your edge?"

[illini43]

CHOO CHOO is unbanned??!!?!?!?!/!

[CalledDownLight]

Cry me a river
Honestryan
Oakrdrzfan
Osh

Calleddownlight
Hklm8383
Oah(s)
Okerboy(1p)


I took some creative license with names, sorry.

I approve of this message.

[threads13]

This is something that I frankly don't understand.

We have guys on this site like pokey & Cry Me A River who make masterful posts again and again that diligent members can read, discuss and use to become skilled poker players.

And no one has a problem with that. In fact, that's exactly why we all come here. To improve our poker play.

But when it comes to short stack information, some people become down right paranoid.

Why are we afraid to help shorties improve their skills, but we bend over backward to help out full stackers?

It doesn't make sense. Either we help other players, or we don't. Either there are enough fish to feed us all, or there aren't.

To you guys who are paranoid and "hold back" in discussions of short stacking, let me ask you this:

Do you also hold back and not share everything you know in discussions of full stack poker? If that's true, would you ever pass along wrong strategy or information, so you can "keep your edge?"

I speculate that a lot of people hold back information on "fullstack" poker. I imagine that a lot of people are especially fearful about shortstacking because it could take away such a large edge when you compare it to giving away the information of "fullstack" poker.

If everyone starts shortstacking then it changes the way the game plays immensely. I don't think we will see the minimum buy-in get any smaller and I also imagine that shortstacking will become more and more popular on the internet until "fullstack" poker becomes hard to come by. It would go along with the current tend of online poker.

[MyTurn2Raise]

This is something that I frankly don't understand.

We have guys on this site like pokey & Cry Me A River who make masterful posts again and again that diligent members can read, discuss and use to become skilled poker players.

And no one has a problem with that. In fact, that's exactly why we all come here. To improve our poker play.

But when it comes to short stack information, some people become down right paranoid.

Why are we afraid to help shorties improve their skills, but we bend over backward to help out full stackers?

It doesn't make sense. Either we help other players, or we don't. Either there are enough fish to feed us all, or there aren't.

To you guys who are paranoid and "hold back" in discussions of short stacking, let me ask you this:

Do you also hold back and not share everything you know in discussions of full stack poker? If that's true, would you ever pass along wrong strategy or information, so you can "keep your edge?"

good points

-yes, full stackers hold back IMO, but that is kind of a side issue

-I've held back for a long time because of what I'm afraid will happen to the games if everything is just out there. I'm beginning to think it would cause an influx of shortstackers that might force the sites to raise the min buyin. At least that would be my hope. But, I don't see any willingness of the sites to change the min buyin yet. We may just end up with games that have 75%+ shortstackers, which would really hurt the fullstackers potential ev.

Also, I'm surprised that some question the 5 figures. I could do it and I suck FFS. I mean, that is with the current environment and things change in the poker world all the time. But, right now, it's very possible and quite likely for anyone that takes the time.

Having seen all the fullring grinders out there, I'm amazed there are not more shorties. It's just as interesting to play as what the nits do. It pays as much if not more. It has less variance.




to get back to phydaux's point, I don't think I'm going to hold back any longer. I'm not the greatest at ss'ing, but I could definitely begin a much better discussion than anything posted here before. My other 'experiment' thread idea was to point out that it mainly is just paranoia. At least, that is the conclusion I've come to see. No one would pay to keep ss'ing info from hitting the boards. Some would pay to have it, but not that much. I'm thinking I'll post some of what I know while on vacation next week. I've already outlined 5 to 6 topics to begin the discussion.

[AceCR9]

I would have no problem with MT2R COACHING with some of his strategy, for those who want to pay for it. Just like everyone else.

but giving away info that will hurt games(for everyone)- just because most of us hate SS'ers, is beyond ******ed.

like other higher stakes players I've spent a lot of time on poker, working to improve, putting in hands, etc. I made the effort, gave up other opportunities, and it has payed off.

While I may give small advice on hands on forums, there is no way I would ever write full out startegy and giving it away. I like money, and that last thing I want to see is the games get harder.

[phydaux]

So are we poker players, or just NL hold'em cash game players?

If tomorrow all the fish moved to limit London lowball, would we follow them or would we quit playing all together?

I don't know about you guys, but I don't expect the internet NL cash game craze to last forever. I fully expect that some day NL hold'em will die out and some other poker varient will take off. That's why I have a plan to eventually learn all the HORSE games, as well as HU limit hold'em.

Why are we so afraid of "ruining" NL cash games? Nothing is forever. You all talk about "adapting to game conditions." Well, freakin' adapt if shorties kill NL cash!

[AceCR9]

-yes, full stackers hold back IMO, but that is kind of a side issue



to get back to phydaux's point, I don't think I'm going to hold back any longer. I'm not the greatest at ss'ing, but I could definitely begin a much better discussion than anything posted here before. My other 'experiment' thread idea was to point out that it mainly is just paranoia. At least, that is the conclusion I've come to see. No one would pay to keep ss'ing info from hitting the boards. Some would pay to have it, but not that much. I'm thinking I'll post some of what I know while on vacation next week. I've already outlined 5 to 6 topics to begin the discussion.

I seriously hope you get banned

btw if you post this, I will as a service to the community, spend time and explain how to exploit your strategy. I guarantee you I can, as I doubt there is anyone here who plays better vs SS'ers than I do.

[diebitter]

Wow, you guys are seriously overestimating the likely effects of this. imo.


This is getting silly. No one is getting banned for posting strat advice about FR games.

[Effen]

Shortstackers save me a lot of money for when I get in cooler situations as I lose 20 bbs instead of 100+.

Anyone here want to team up? IE if we're in a situation against a shortstacker we both call and check it down to bust him (unless we have a huge hand, trips+ ). Then just Stars transfer half the balance to the other guy.

I'm really big on spite.

[MyTurn2Raise]

btw if you post this, I will as a service to the community, spend time and explain how to exploit your strategy. I guarantee you I can, as I doubt there is anyone here who plays better vs SS'ers than I do.

I'd expect nothing less and would be excited to read it.
This forum is sometimes about moving poker knowledge forward and your counter-strats would be great toward that goal.

I do regret that you wish me banned for posting what I think is +ev advice on a gambling forum set up by a book publishing company that prints +ev gambling theory, strat, and tactics.

[GiantBuddha]

AceCR9, why on earth would someone get banned for posting strategic content on 2+2 forum? And if he did, wouldn't MT2R use that as the first line in his infomercial? You know, "With secrets so powerful, they banned me from strat forums for only hinting at them."

And why are people so scared of the shortstackers? It's hilarious. You think the fish care? They don't. That's why they'll flip with J8s. They think it's fun.

The good players hate it, and the reason is that it takes away some of their edge. It makes you think twice about mixing it up light. Whatever, it's poker.

And it is poker. Maybe poker-lite, but still poker. Some NL players seem to think Limit isn't poker, just poo-flinging. But NL can be frighteningly simple at times, and shortstacking just highlights that point.

OOH, how do you play Limit London Lowball? That alliterates rather nicely. I would definitely play that if it were easy to multi-table.

[GiantBuddha]

Shortstackers save me a lot of money for when I get in cooler situations as I lose 20 bbs instead of 100+.

Anyone here want to team up? IE if we're in a situation against a shortstacker we both call and check it down to bust him (unless we have a huge hand, trips+ ). Then just Stars transfer half the balance to the other guy.

I'm really big on spite.

Yes, cheating is the obvious solution, ldo. If you're in a 3-ways for 20BB pot, I hope you have something good, though.

[inverted]

Ok, I've stopped reading on page 7 to post some thoughts before they fly out of my head.

First I agree with phydaux, either people are open with all their thoughts on poker or not.

I also think that having this information wont be as unproductive as people think. Personally I wouldn't mind if a table was all short stackers bar me, you could just run them over. Also having played as a short stacker (only to clear a bonus which required me to play above my usual limits), the worst possible environment for me to play in would be one in which everyone short stacked.

These thoughts lead me to the following conclusion, either posting this information will have a minor effect on the games. Which won't drastically effect peoples win rates here as they will learn to counter short stackers or it will have such a major effect as for everyone to become short stackers which could change to a completely new dynamic. One which I believe will lead to short stacking being less profitable. Further I can't see poker rooms not increasing the min buy in if this thread didnt have a major effect, as most of their profit is in raking the full stacks. If all the short stackers played really tight their profits would fall.

Just my thoughts, I'm not fussed either way. But if I was you I would post.

[inverted]

Sorry to add this but Ace isnt you posting a counter strategy good for the game. If you suddenly have a bunch of short stackers see that their play is exploitable they might stop/ if the effects of both these posts are as great as people believe wont this lead to people starting to play SS then everyone seeing a way to beat SS'ers and changing back to full stack play? I honestly think that MT2R post won't hurt the game at all, it could also make it better.

[AceCR9]

Sorry to add this but Ace isnt you posting a counter strategy good for the game. If you suddenly have a bunch of short stackers see that their play is exploitable they might stop/

good for full stackers, yes.

but if people can't beat SS'ers already, I'm not giving out free info on how to beat them. If people put in the time to figure out the correct adjustments then good for them, but you have to put in the time.