Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to 1/2 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2010, 03:11 PM   #476
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerRon247 View Post
Please explain.
I have done this already many times in the Zoo

The average player absolutely despises the 50BB min game. The 40BB min game will be the same. It's due to loss aversion and prospect theory. The average player has much bigger losses much more often playing at the 50BB min game (or 40BB min) than at a 20BB min game. The average player responds by depositing less and less often.

New money has to be injected into the system overall. The changes about to be put into place are really going to cut into that new money.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:23 PM   #477
DDAWD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,878
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
I have done this already many times in the Zoo

The average player absolutely despises the 50BB min game. The 40BB min game will be the same. It's due to loss aversion and prospect theory. The average player has much bigger losses much more often playing at the 50BB min game (or 40BB min) than at a 20BB min game. The average player responds by depositing less and less often.

New money has to be injected into the system overall. The changes about to be put into place are really going to cut into that new money.
I like your certainty. Makes you seem authoritative!
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:26 PM   #478
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
I like your certainty. Makes you seem authoritative!
well, you could follow the tables and their make-ups to follow the slow exodus of the average player out of the 50BB min games. You could look at how often the average guy chose to sit in 20-100 over 50-100. You could look at how infrequently the guys that disappeared at 50BB min games came back to the site.

Or, you could look at behavioral economics and prospect theory.

I'm not 100% certain on the best structure to go with, but I'm certain I've looked at the issue more than any other person has and what I post is my best interpretation of it.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:35 PM   #479
DDAWD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,878
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Well, at full tilt, they have the option of a 20bb table.

But let's see the data. If I follow you correctly, you are claiming that the average player used to play 50bb tables frequently and they have been leaving. This is quite different from saying they never liked it.
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:50 PM   #480
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
Well, at full tilt, they have the option of a 20bb table.

But let's see the data. If I follow you correctly, you are claiming that the average player used to play 50bb tables frequently and they have been leaving. This is quite different from saying they never liked it.
You realize it's not the same as the average guy couldn't buy in deep at the 20BB table on full tilt.

We've also seen full tilt's rush poker succeed because the average guy isn't stuck waiting on a ton of multi-tabling HUDbots.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:09 PM   #481
DDAWD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,878
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

So you're saying that the average player wants to buy deep on tables where everyone else is buying short?
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:10 PM   #482
AntiMatter
adept
 
AntiMatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: City of Dis
Posts: 905
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Sorry to interject, but I can't seem to find the very start of this thread, not here or in the archives.... help?
AntiMatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #483
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
So you're saying that the average player wants to buy deep on tables where everyone else is buying short?
strawman

the last time I played the 20BB min games, over half of the players were deep. A large pct (about 35%) were short
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:17 PM   #484
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiMatter View Post
Sorry to interject, but I can't seem to find the very start of this thread, not here or in the archives.... help?
nothing good happens until around post #90 in this thread
you are not missing anything if you skip all the rest
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:24 PM   #485
DDAWD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,878
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
You realize it's not the same as the average guy couldn't buy in deep at the 20BB table on full tilt.

We've also seen full tilt's rush poker succeed because the average guy isn't stuck waiting on a ton of multi-tabling HUDbots.
I don't think you understand what the term straw man means. It means that I construct a hypothetical argument which no one is making so that I can refute it.

In this case, I'm taking something you said and asking you to clarify it.

Here's what you said

1)Average player doesn't like to have to buy in for 50bb
2)Average player doesn't like to play shallow tables because he can't buy in deep

So the conclusion I'm drawing is that the average player likes to buy in deep against players who buy short.

Perhaps there are some other ways to interpret your two statements. I can't think of it, though.
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:44 PM   #486
AntiMatter
adept
 
AntiMatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: City of Dis
Posts: 905
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
nothing good happens until around post #90 in this thread
you are not missing anything if you skip all the rest
Well I remember some useful info, anyone help?
AntiMatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:47 PM   #487
dashman
veteran
 
dashman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Below EV just above awfulness
Posts: 2,937
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
well, you could follow the tables and their make-ups to follow the slow exodus of the average player out of the 50BB min games. You could look at how often the average guy chose to sit in 20-100 over 50-100. You could look at how infrequently the guys that disappeared at 50BB min games came back to the site.

Or, you could look at behavioral economics and prospect theory.

I'm not 100% certain on the best structure to go with, but I'm certain I've looked at the issue more than any other person has and what I post is my best interpretation of it.
I know this was discussed in the other thread to great length but there is no way you can put all the "blame" on the 50bb min tables. The FACT is that there are far more regular tables open in the lobby at the top, always. Hence more fish will sit at whatever table is at the top and more convenient for them to sit. How do I know this?? I spoke to my dad who recently started playing online and I asked him what his process was for sitting at a table......"I just open up Poker stars and I sit at whatever table is at the top". He went on to ask me what the 50bb tables even were. Then after a few minutes of discussion I finally explained to him the 20bb stacks to which his exact words were "Oh yeah I hate those damn bastards, they just go all in every time I try and play a hand so I just wait till I get AK or AQ then I bust their ass!"

You say all your opinions with such certainty yet Stars truly has all of these recreational deposit and re-deposit numbers, in fact they are the ONLY ones who have all these numbers that you claim to speak for. Yet, Stars apparently is going against those numbers??? Stars knows they have to keep re-injecting players and needs to help the recreational player get the most bang for their money along with keeping the most loyal regs playing at the site.

Personally I'm not happy with the shallow table max buy in amount but it appears that Stars chose an equilibrium that to let the recreational player decide, rather than letting people such as you or I. It will be interesting to see how the 60 minute rathole time changes things or if there will now be double the tables open in the lobby. I don't think there will be a lot more tables as it will require much more effort on the ssers part to start and open tables and almost none of them start or like to play shorthanded at least at 50nl and below.

Last edited by dashman; 04-12-2010 at 04:55 PM.
dashman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 05:02 PM   #488
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

the point is stars just took away the ability of the recreational player to decide

before, a rec player with a stack of over 50BBs could decide who he wanted to play with. Now, he cannot. That was what the announced change was today-- it took away choice. Well, that and adding the really deep ante games. Those were the two changes. That's it. They took away choice from their players and added a really deep ante game.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 05:11 PM   #489
dashman
veteran
 
dashman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Below EV just above awfulness
Posts: 2,937
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I agree there is probably a small portion of the playing pool that is going to be effected by the change.

I think we can both agree that the current state of the games, whether that is 20bb or 50bb min tables, something had to be done. At least Stars said this is a change that they will continue to look at and evaluate in the coming years.
dashman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 06:59 PM   #490
angry_man
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,108
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
the point is stars just took away the ability of the recreational player to decide

before, a rec player with a stack of over 50BBs could decide who he wanted to play with. Now, he cannot. That was what the announced change was today-- it took away choice. Well, that and adding the really deep ante games. Those were the two changes. That's it. They took away choice from their players and added a really deep ante game.
Old setup: player can choose to play against 50bb+ only, or a mix from 20bb-100bb.

New setup: player can choose to play against 40bb+ only, or 50bb- only.

Two choices before, two choices after. This is not a reduction in choice, merely a change.

(Throw in ante tables, and the choice has actually widened.)
angry_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 11:10 AM   #491
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_man View Post
Old setup: player can choose to play against 50bb+ only, or a mix from 20bb-100bb.

New setup: player can choose to play against 40bb+ only, or 50bb- only.

Two choices before, two choices after. This is not a reduction in choice, merely a change.

(Throw in ante tables, and the choice has actually widened.)
before, those with a 51-100 BB buyin had two structures to choose from. Now they have one. I question your ability to think. Actually, I'm sure you don't do it.

On top of that, Stars choose to go with the option for games that has gotten trounced in the actual voting with feet and money over the last two years. The 20-100 game has absolutely pwned the 50 min game in number of players, and number of 51+ BB buyin players.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 11:11 AM   #492
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
Cardrunners has a video where one of their studs talks about how much he hates shortstackers, but that he respects 40putts as the best shortstacker in the game. Woohoo!

40putts is on FTP and it's time to set the datamining machine into effect.
guess we should've paid more attention to this
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 11:52 AM   #493
angry_man
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,108
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
before, those with a 51-100 BB buyin had two structures to choose from. Now they have one. I question your ability to think. Actually, I'm sure you don't do it.

On top of that, Stars choose to go with the option for games that has gotten trounced in the actual voting with feet and money over the last two years. The 20-100 game has absolutely pwned the 50 min game in number of players, and number of 51+ BB buyin players.
Before, those who wanted to play at a 50bb- table had no structures to choose from. Now they have one.

Before, those who wanted to play >100bb deep had no structures to choose from. Now they have one.

I repeat, the changes constitute a change in choices for everyone, not a reduction. It's a reduction of choices of interest for that subset who would prefer to play 20-100bb. I see no grounds for dumping rec players in that category.

As to the rest of your post, it's been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, and I'm sure you know (and disagree with) the counterarguments.

BTW, the line

"I question your ability to think. Actually, I'm sure you don't do it."

adds absolutely nothing to your argument. If you enjoy flaming, carry on, but otherwise, you might want to scale back on the pointless personal attacks.
angry_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 12:09 PM   #494
DDAWD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,878
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
I'm not 100% certain on the best structure to go with, but I'm certain I've looked at the issue more than any other person has and what I post is my best interpretation of it.
What's your methodology anyways?
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 12:16 PM   #495
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_man View Post
Before, those who wanted to play at a 50bb- table had no structures to choose from. Now they have one.

Before, those who wanted to play >100bb deep had no structures to choose from. Now they have one.

I repeat, the changes constitute a change in choices for everyone, not a reduction. It's a reduction of choices of interest for that subset who would prefer to play 20-100bb. I see no grounds for dumping rec players in that category.

As to the rest of your post, it's been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, and I'm sure you know (and disagree with) the counterarguments.

BTW, the line

"I question your ability to think. Actually, I'm sure you don't do it."

adds absolutely nothing to your argument. If you enjoy flaming, carry on, but otherwise, you might want to scale back on the pointless personal attacks.
IF you continue to post responses that indicate you are a drooling fool, I will treat you as such.
Before, those with less than 50BBs could play the 20-100 game. Guess what? Any stack bigger than theirs is really only the size of their stack. When you post just outright wrong stuff without thinking, you should get called out on it. You're wasting everyone's time with nonsense. Choices for the largest subset of players were eliminated.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2010, 12:44 PM   #496
angry_man
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,108
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Before, those with less than 50BBs could play the 20-100 game. Guess what? Any stack bigger than theirs is really only the size of their stack.

Playing at a 50bb- table is not the same as playing with less than 50bb at a 20-100bb table. You see that, right?
angry_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2010, 05:40 PM   #497
wirless
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 127
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

BUMP,

what has changed in the 5 months since with?

SS strategy ?
Diff. table buy ins on stars ?
wirless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 10:42 PM   #498
aspire_knowledge
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 62
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

no more discussion?
aspire_knowledge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 11:14 PM   #499
Smoking Dough
old hand
 
Smoking Dough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,452
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

some ssers are still killin it despite stars changes.
Smoking Dough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 05:00 AM   #500
gugolz
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 81
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

This thread is very long and the useful stuff is kinda hidden, is there a place to read just the useful information on this ? thanks
gugolz is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive