Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to 1/2 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2009, 11:54 PM   #451
BoZa44
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: does not lose big pots!
Posts: 208
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Effen View Post
Yay I'm in a thread.
i lol'd
BoZa44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 07:40 AM   #452
Fist Pump
old hand
 
Fist Pump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,666
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Bump
Fist Pump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 03:01 PM   #453
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I cannot believe the guys shortstacking 50NL and 100NL fullring

if you know anything about shortstacking at all, you should be in aggressive 6max games
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:55 PM   #454
Fist Pump
old hand
 
Fist Pump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,666
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

There are plenty of short stackers on the full ring games today, and most are pretty bad. Had a table with only 2 full stacks
Fist Pump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:58 PM   #455
ach ja
veteran
 
ach ja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: I run like God, like always ldo...
Posts: 2,687
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fist Pump View Post
There are plenty of short stackers on the full ring games today, and most are pretty bad. Had a table with only 2 full stacks
[ ] Amazing table selection
ach ja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 12:13 PM   #456
Fist Pump
old hand
 
Fist Pump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,666
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

With the new calculator, what formula did you put to work out "adjust for players left to act" since you dont know their calling range or was it just 77+ AJ+?
Fist Pump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2009, 07:57 PM   #457
hsiffish
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California
Posts: 176
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
it works out to something like this:
f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E)) > 0
where
f = % of time initial raiser folds to push
c = % of time initial raiser calls push
R = Open raise size of initial raiser
w = win % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range
l = loss % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range

Basically, those terms account for the money won when the inital raiser folds to the push and the amount won win the push hand beats out the calling hand outweighing the amount lost when the calling hand beats the push hand.

Here, the action of the table dictates the initial raise size and the effective stack. The shortstacker must estimate the initial opening range and the calling range.

NOTE: this is assuming a BB and SB and a 5% rake. All of this stuff can change as well as there being overcallers...yummy!

the solution is to simplify for w and find out what win pct your hand needs verse a villain calling range.


w > ( (c-1)(R+1.5)/c + E) / (19E/10 +57/40)
So to derive an unexploitable range of cards to resteal with, do we assume that c=1 (initial raiser will always call) ? This would just lead to calculation what cards will be +EV against two random cards...which sounds a bit too simple for me.

If C=1 and E=20, w=.507, which corresponds to 77+ against ATC....(I feel like I am wrong here). Or should I be looking for w>.507 vs the initial raise range?
For example initial raise range 19.8% (66+,A3s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+), hands that have w>.507 are 88+,AT+

Let me know if I have it right...or am completely off.
hsiffish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2009, 06:20 PM   #458
jdnec_wow
centurion
 
jdnec_wow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: [X] Helping Haitian people
Posts: 126
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

all this stuff works??

Well Im just asking before i read it all...

Thanks in advance!
jdnec_wow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2009, 09:17 PM   #459
300zxrider
veteran
 
300zxrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Roller Coaster
Posts: 3,085
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnec_wow View Post
all this stuff works??

Well Im just asking before i read it all...

Thanks in advance!

hahaaah
300zxrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 01:38 PM   #460
jdnec_wow
centurion
 
jdnec_wow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: [X] Helping Haitian people
Posts: 126
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Ive got a question about an EV calculation for the example you give in the first lesson.

I had used the EV equation:
EV = (Money won from pot)+(Money won from bets)-(Money lose from bets)
0 = 4.5*(0,6875*Eq + 0.3125)+17*(0,6975*Eq)-20*(0,6875*(1-Eq))
Eq = 0,4326 = 43,26%

While applying the equation on the Lesson 1:
0 = f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E))
0 = 0.3125*(3+1.5) + 0.6875*(Eq((17+1.5) - 1/20*(2*17+1.5))-(1-Eq)*17)
Eq = 44.36%
I have the same results (44,36%) when I use the SSS calculator

I wonder why the results are different between the two equations when we are calculating the same thing (Eq). or maybe im doing something wrong...?

thank you ! and congratulation for the post
jdnec_wow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2010, 02:03 PM   #461
corbindallas
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 163
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

anyone interested in a short stacking study group? pm me.
corbindallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2010, 10:08 PM   #462
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,289
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnec_wow View Post
all this stuff works??

Well Im just asking before i read it all...

Thanks in advance!
Yes, it works. If your goal is to win less than 1.5ptBB/100 and probably less than that. You need to do some thinking and working out ranges, especially calling ranges and plan on mass tabling.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 12:00 AM   #463
SteelerPower
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: If I didn't suck, i'd be Awesome!
Posts: 636
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Always was in favor of if someone wanted to SS, let them.

But maybe SS'ing really has hurt the game.

Was just a year ago, on PokerStars, you see tables 30% VPIP, even 40% VPIP. Almost never sit at one 25% or less.

Now seems every table has min 3 SS, up to 5 on each. Rarely if ever see a table 30% VPIP, never see 40% anymore. Usually happy to find ones 25%.

Average VPIP on PokerStars now is like 18%-19%. Excluding the 50BB tables.

Amazing what a difference a year makes.
SteelerPower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 12:50 AM   #464
funkyj
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
funkyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: working without a 27b/6
Posts: 6,416
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Yes, it works. If your goal is to win less than 1.5ptBB/100 and probably less than that. You need to do some thinking and working out ranges, especially calling ranges and plan on mass tabling.
I also recommend anti-depressants. Perhaps prozac. I tried it for a little while just to see how those people I hate live -- it sucked balls. The variance of this thin edge strategy is insane. You might as well go play PLO.
funkyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 03:43 AM   #465
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

while the variance is high in terms of buyins, it's much less than a fullstacker at the same game level would experience
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 03:44 AM   #466
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelerPower View Post
Always was in favor of if someone wanted to SS, let them.

But maybe SS'ing really has hurt the game.

Was just a year ago, on PokerStars, you see tables 30% VPIP, even 40% VPIP. Almost never sit at one 25% or less.

Now seems every table has min 3 SS, up to 5 on each. Rarely if ever see a table 30% VPIP, never see 40% anymore. Usually happy to find ones 25%.

Average VPIP on PokerStars now is like 18%-19%. Excluding the 50BB tables.

Amazing what a difference a year makes.
given that the 50BB tables are nearly the same VPIP and less WTSD, I wouldn't say that SS is creating the situation you are talking about
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 03:46 AM   #467
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Yes, it works. If your goal is to win less than 1.5ptBB/100 and probably less than that. You need to do some thinking and working out ranges, especially calling ranges and plan on mass tabling.
the best make more, but the vast majority are even less than 1.5ptbb/100. They are under 0.5ptbb/100. Then again, that is a greater win pct than quite a bit of the poker community. Plus, it's good donkament training, which is where the positive fat-tail results lie.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 05:33 AM   #468
SteelerPower
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: If I didn't suck, i'd be Awesome!
Posts: 636
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
given that the 50BB tables are nearly the same VPIP and less WTSD, I wouldn't say that SS is creating the situation you are talking about
Maybe I am wrong, would not be first time.

But given that I stated the 50bb tables are close to same, but rest of the tables(the majority on Pokerstars) now are 17-19% VPIP would it not help prove how SSers have changed the game for the worse, and not disproved it ?
SteelerPower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 08:30 AM   #469
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,289
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
the best make more, but the vast majority are even less than 1.5ptbb/100. They are under 0.5ptbb/100. Then again, that is a greater win pct than quite a bit of the poker community. Plus, it's good donkament training, which is where the positive fat-tail results lie.
There will always be a few outliers.

It is also good about really learning about what hands have value against certain ranges when I did it for a week. One thing I might go back to again was that most of my profit came from when I had doubled up and was waiting to for the blinds to come around before leaving. Most players can't adjust to the fact that you might know how to play deeper. One memorable table I started with 20BB and left with 200BB because they couldn't figure out that when I was at 70BB, I wasn't willing to stack off on the flop with less than a monster.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 03:42 AM   #470
starrazz
banned
 
starrazz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mesquite, TX
Posts: 5,584
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
one could only hope, yet I've seen nothing from the sites thus far to suggest they'll do that
2 1/2 years later....bump....announcement from pokerstars is imminent (see thread elsewhere)
starrazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 04:09 AM   #471
jowr
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: MICROSTAKES
Posts: 755
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Anticipatory "HAHAHAHAHAH SHORTSTACKING SCUM!"
jowr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 02:27 PM   #472
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,622
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

sadly, 50BB (and 40BB) min tables are much, much worse for the poker economy than shortstackers are
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 02:33 PM   #473
PokerRon247
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
PokerRon247's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Running up a mountain
Posts: 11,192
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
sadly, 50BB (and 40BB) min tables are much, much worse for the poker economy than shortstackers are
Please explain.
PokerRon247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 02:33 PM   #474
SammyG-SD
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SammyG-SD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Original Bacon MVP
Posts: 12,600
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerRon247 View Post
Please explain.
+1
SammyG-SD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2010, 02:45 PM   #475
Tumaterminator
HOCKEY!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 26,444
Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

lol
Tumaterminator is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive