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Old 02-02-2008, 02:08 AM   #376
MyTurn2Raise
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

New York Jet, you might want to put in the +ev pushes regardless of call% in a separate color as well

I'm very impressed
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:31 AM   #377
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I sometimes play with a 20BB stack full ring and my starting hands looked *roughly like this:

EP: JJ+ AK
MP: 88+ AQ+
LP: 77+ AJ+ KQ
CO: 66+ AT+ A9s,KJ+
BTN/SB: 55+ Axs, A7+, Any 2 Broadway.

*table with no reads, and adjusted with reads.

What sort of range am I looking at for 6max when UTG, UTG+1?
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:45 AM   #378
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjohnny View Post
I sometimes play with a 20BB stack full ring and my starting hands looked *roughly like this:

EP: JJ+ AK
MP: 88+ AQ+
LP: 77+ AJ+ KQ
CO: 66+ AT+ A9s,KJ+
BTN/SB: 55+ Axs, A7+, Any 2 Broadway.

*table with no reads, and adjusted with reads.

What sort of range am I looking at for 6max when UTG, UTG+1?
this means you don't play very well
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:31 AM   #379
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by CalledDownLight View Post
this means you don't play very well
Unless you intend to offer suggestions that might improve play why post?

Last edited by Madjohnny; 02-02-2008 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:40 AM   #380
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjohnny View Post
I sometimes play with a 20BB stack full ring and my starting hands looked *roughly like this:

EP: JJ+ AK
MP: 88+ AQ+
LP: 77+ AJ+ KQ
CO: 66+ AT+ A9s,KJ+
BTN/SB: 55+ Axs, A7+, Any 2 Broadway.

*table with no reads, and adjusted with reads.

What sort of range am I looking at for 6max when UTG, UTG+1?
That looks a lot like Miller starts.

I think that MTTR and Diebitter direct herein to the thread:

Teach me to be 22-16

Wherein I think that you'll find something like:

Overall vpip of 24:
Early(13.4) .60:
22+,A7s+,KTs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo

for UTG, UTG+1.

gTg

Edit: See MTTR's post herein:
LESSON 3: Hand Ranges to Play

Last edited by GaryTheGoat; 02-02-2008 at 11:54 AM. Reason: reference Lesson 3
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:53 AM   #381
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
New York Jet, you might want to put in the +ev pushes regardless of call% in a separate color as well
Can you elaborate? Do you mean assuming a 100% call range? Vs a random hand?

Also, my program may look a little fancier than what it is. I have 10 preselected ranges for you to choose from (3.5%,5.6%,8.3%,9.7%,13.1%,15.8%,19.8%,24.9%,28.8% ,35.7%). This keeps it fast (instant calculations).
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:48 PM   #382
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

yeah... figured you had preselected ranges.... plus, there are assumptions about the type of hands involved in that, but changing those to reflect more suited connectors makes very little difference

back to the original question
I think I was meaning non-exploitive ranges: Ranges that are +ev to push for the ss'er no matter what the calling % of the villain (be it 100%, 75%, 50%, X%)-- pretty much the hands that come up as green no matter what calling range is put in for the villain
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:31 PM   #383
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

M2TR thanks for your thread. I really like the mathematics of this style of poker.

I have a couple of questions:

- Is the main weapon in the arsenal of the SS the Re-Steal?
- Do you ever open-limp pre-flop, or limp behind?
- Do you ever push for 20bb instead of raising 2.5x pre-flop?
- Do you sometimes Push the flop with 6.5bb in the pot instead of c-betting?

- What area's are most important to learn?
Like; Re-steal, Open-Raise & C-bet, SB-play, Raising Limper, Multi-way pots, ..?
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:45 PM   #384
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
yeah... figured you had preselected ranges.... plus, there are assumptions about the type of hands involved in that, but changing those to reflect more suited connectors makes very little difference

back to the original question
I think I was meaning non-exploitive ranges: Ranges that are +ev to push for the ss'er no matter what the calling % of the villain (be it 100%, 75%, 50%, X%)-- pretty much the hands that come up as green no matter what calling range is put in for the villain
OK. Once I get the original working, I'll consider adding that.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:56 PM   #385
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
that littlezen thread is funny

It just shows how wrong I was in the past
I thought ss'ing knowledge had to be kept secret and that online poker would change drastically with a guide on how to do it. Turns out I was wrong. You can put up a simple guide and it mostly will not make a difference as it still requires poker talent.

.
this is so true , knowing how to playi 100bb's b4 i learned how to shortstack helped me out a ton .... , but im still kinda torn if i should contribute to this thread or not ,,,, im making so much money doing this , i dont want it 2 ruin the games (like what rolf slotboom did to FR omaha games) ,or any1 to get better ...but who knows i might chime in sooner or later

Last edited by Jzo19; 02-02-2008 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:00 AM   #386
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I dont know how many players took seriously MT2R's teachings but I am one of them. Before november 1 I was a winning 100 NL player with 5-10 BB/100 (depending on the site). Since then I play only as a shortstack. My PTBB/100 is +1.4 at 200NL after 44k hands (+1.7 if I adjust with PokerEV). As I play 2x-3x as many tables as I did with fullstack, plus one level higher, plus getting more rakeback, my hourly rate at 200NL SSing is approximately the same as I had as a 100NL fullstack player.

Then I moved up to 400NL. I've read in this forum that this ss strategy works better at higher stakes because of the increased preflop aggression so I was hoping an even higher hourly rate. I played 6k hands and had only 1 marginal winner session (real, not PT session), all of the remaining were losers, with a cumulative -2.6 BB/100. According to PokerEV I run really bad, but the adjusted BB/100 is still only +0.2 so my hourly rate is way worse than I had at 200NL.

I know 6k is not too many hands but there are differences between 200NL and 400NL. At 200NL they call my shoves with Ax, KJ, even hands like QJ and 22 and sometimes SCs without even thinking too much. At 400NL the players are way better. When I shove after their PF raise they usually go into the tank and then call me with better hands and fold the worse. It means that my folding equity is higher, but looks like I dont know for sure how to exploit it correctly.

My postfop skills are fairly good for 100-200NL, but not as good as of the better 400NL regulars.
I run at 17/16 at 200NL, and 14/14 at 400NL. Postflop aggressions are 6.4/1.8/2.2.

MyTurn2Raise: 1. when you moved up to 400NL did you have similar problem? Did you have to change you game plan?
2. What is your opinion about my numbers?
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:36 AM   #387
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjohnny View Post
I sometimes play with a 20BB stack full ring and my starting hands looked *roughly like this:

EP: JJ+ AK
MP: 88+ AQ+
LP: 77+ AJ+ KQ
CO: 66+ AT+ A9s,KJ+
BTN/SB: 55+ Axs, A7+, Any 2 Broadway.

*table with no reads, and adjusted with reads.

What sort of range am I looking at for 6max when UTG, UTG+1?
Teacher - does this look about right for a full ring game?

Still trying to get my head around the number concepts as I suck horribly at math - will continue to re-read with interest. Further discussion similarly welcome.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:57 AM   #388
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

IceCrystal

you just run bad or picked a lousy time of day. nl400 can be rich pickings for shortstack play (I've worn >$500 in 15 minutes a couple of times, and I only do it rarely), but the variance is hellish.
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:26 PM   #389
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishing2do View Post
M2TR thanks for your thread. I really like the mathematics of this style of poker.

I have a couple of questions:

- Is the main weapon in the arsenal of the SS the Re-Steal?
- Do you ever open-limp pre-flop, or limp behind?
- Do you ever push for 20bb instead of raising 2.5x pre-flop?
- Do you sometimes Push the flop with 6.5bb in the pot instead of c-betting?

- What area's are most important to learn?
Like; Re-steal, Open-Raise & C-bet, SB-play, Raising Limper, Multi-way pots, ..?
1. the main weapon depends on what game you play...
at lower levels and with loose-passives, just pushing premium hands and getting called by crap is worth alot
at higher levels with aggressive preflop play, the re-steal is of paramount importance
2. yes, i occassionally with open-limp or limp behind.... very rare at 6max, but happens sometimes at full ring... it's definitely not the default play, but this is poker
3. yes, i sometimes push... I think I mentioned it in the small blind open-push lessons... haji's donkey devestation blog has more on that topic
4. yes, sometimes I push the flop... see the lesson on how sometimes a 2-street game is powerful


not sure what is the most important lesson... depends where you are starting from

I already had poker basics down, so it was just mastering the resteal and realizing how overall theories on poker play will change when playing a 20BB stack verse those playing a larger game
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:41 PM   #390
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceCrystal View Post
I dont know how many players took seriously MT2R's teachings but I am one of them. Before november 1 I was a winning 100 NL player with 5-10 BB/100 (depending on the site). Since then I play only as a shortstack. My PTBB/100 is +1.4 at 200NL after 44k hands (+1.7 if I adjust with PokerEV). As I play 2x-3x as many tables as I did with fullstack, plus one level higher, plus getting more rakeback, my hourly rate at 200NL SSing is approximately the same as I had as a 100NL fullstack player.

Then I moved up to 400NL. I've read in this forum that this ss strategy works better at higher stakes because of the increased preflop aggression so I was hoping an even higher hourly rate. I played 6k hands and had only 1 marginal winner session (real, not PT session), all of the remaining were losers, with a cumulative -2.6 BB/100. According to PokerEV I run really bad, but the adjusted BB/100 is still only +0.2 so my hourly rate is way worse than I had at 200NL.

I know 6k is not too many hands but there are differences between 200NL and 400NL. At 200NL they call my shoves with Ax, KJ, even hands like QJ and 22 and sometimes SCs without even thinking too much. At 400NL the players are way better. When I shove after their PF raise they usually go into the tank and then call me with better hands and fold the worse. It means that my folding equity is higher, but looks like I dont know for sure how to exploit it correctly.

My postfop skills are fairly good for 100-200NL, but not as good as of the better 400NL regulars.
I run at 17/16 at 200NL, and 14/14 at 400NL. Postflop aggressions are 6.4/1.8/2.2.

MyTurn2Raise: 1. when you moved up to 400NL did you have similar problem? Did you have to change you game plan?
2. What is your opinion about my numbers?
honestly, I haven't played 400 to 2000 in over a year

I'm a bankroll nit and just cannot handle the swings

when you're a 1-2ptbb/100 winner, there are some horrific swings

I realize it's awful strategy on my part and I'm OK with not pushing myself to higher limits anymore



if your folding equity is higher at 400NL, you should be restealing with a larger range
if they are only calling with better hands, that is highly exploitable
newyorkjet's amazing tool will show how when it comes out
I've already done the math
for example, it's positive ev to push 55+, A8s+, A9o+ v a 30% open raiser that calls with all 30% on a 3BB open raise with a 15BB stack. However, if he only calls with the top 20% of those hands (the higher broadways and pairs), you can push 22+, A2s+, KTs+, A9o+, KJo+. If they call with less than that, it starts opening up the floodgates.

if you're restealing on a 30% open raiser, he should be calling you with worse hands or he risks being exploited
otherwise, he isn't opening 30%, which allows you to exploit the math for blind on blind situations
anecdotally, i've heard 400NL 6max is "baby soft"

seems like you're playing a bit too tight compared to the pro shortstackers at those levels that I've datamined

your postflop numbers look great

you are right... 400NL players are obviously tougher to beat
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:44 PM   #391
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by Rictus View Post
Teacher - does this look about right for a full ring game?

Still trying to get my head around the number concepts as I suck horribly at math - will continue to re-read with interest. Further discussion similarly welcome.
bah... preflop standards are overrated

late position and small blind ranges are heavily dependent on the players left to act... LOL at using a script for that stuff... read Haji's Donkey Devastation blog for more on that topic... play with SNGWizard or something similar... exploit their tendencies


early stuff doesn't look horrible... just find something acceptable and go with it

the early position stuff reminds me on the thread we had on whether it was profitable to be a NIT.... I think the party full ring shortstacker had a range very similar to that in early position, but would ATSB over 40%
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:34 PM   #392
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Teaser for a project I've been working on...



4 slide bar moves vs. 6 mouse-clicks
Initial release thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh....php?p=2571433.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:52 AM   #393
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by New York Jet View Post
Wow...good job Mr. Jet. This tool appears to be an accurate codification of the charts that I laboriously constructed in about 80 hours. lol

I compared a small sample of SSS to said charts and found no unexplainable variances.

Comparison of SSS / My Charts:

3.5(3.5) / 3.5(3.5):
25/2-10/6 QQ+ / QQ+

13.1(9.7).745 / 13.8(9.7).700:
20/2 99+,AQs+,AQ+ / 99+,AQs+,AQ+
15/5 88+,AJs+,AJ+ / 77+,AJs+,AJ+

19.8(15.8).798 / 19.8(15.8).798:
25/2 66+,AJs+,AQ+ / 66+,AJs+,AQ+
10/6 33+,A4s,A8o+,KTs+,KQo,QTs+,JTs / 33+,A4s,A8o+,KTs+,KQo,QTs+,JTs

28.8(19.8).6875 / 28.8(19.8).688:
25/2 77+,A9s+,ATo+,KJs+,KQo / 77+,A9s+,ATo+,KJs+,KQo
20/5 22+,A2s+,A9o+,KTs+,KJo+ / 22+,A2s+,A9o+,KTs+,KJo+

Bolded is Explained variance

Again, excellent work.

Thanks,

gTg
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:20 PM   #394
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

wowza....took me alot of excel work to come up with nearly the same stuff,

blackize has good points on the changing effect of rake at higher levels (there is an upper bound that is often reached which changes the formulae posted earlier)
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:14 PM   #395
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

The software is great, thank you, NYJet!

Apart from the resteal, what kind of other situations worth analyzing?
Your formula and the software is applicable for situations where it is headsup preflop and I am the last to act:
- UTG/MP/LP raises, everybody folds and I am the BB
- folded to the SB who raises and I am the BB

But what about the situations where one or more of the factors differ?
I am uncertain in such situations. For example, an average MP player raises, and I have 88 on the button. It is not a steal - he has a hand - and the blinds are left to act. How can I decide the optimal play?
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:03 PM   #396
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by IceCrystal View Post
The software is great, thank you, NYJet!

Apart from the resteal, what kind of other situations worth analyzing?
Good question. I'm not sure. Maybe when to call a re-shove when you are the first raiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceCrystal View Post
But what about the situations where one or more of the factors differ?
I am uncertain in such situations. For example, an average MP player raises, and I have 88 on the button. It is not a steal - he has a hand - and the blinds are left to act. How can I decide the optimal play?
This calculator is still applicable in this situation. The potential overcalls do not change the results very much. Just realize that your raise and call ranges will be much closer. A MP raiser will have a tighter raising range, but a similar calling range.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:47 AM   #397
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Good question. I'm not sure. Maybe when to call a re-shove when you are the first raiser?


This calculator is still applicable in this situation. The potential overcalls do not change the results very much. Just realize that your raise and call ranges will be much closer. A MP raiser will have a tighter raising range, but a similar calling range.
when to call a re-shove---

I have one chart that gives the pot odds necessary for that

I'll try to clean it up and post it
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:30 AM   #398
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Hi there,

Ive just discovered these forums and since Im a shortstack player myself I this thread was of great intrest to me. I kind of figured out some of the stuff myself but never thought as deeply about it as Mt2R and other contributers. So thanks for putting in the work and posting about it here.

I also have a question/problem and I hope someone can help me with it. I downloaded New York Jets program (thanks for sharing) but it doesnt seem to work properly. Anytime I move one of the sliders nearly all the fields turn to green and wont change back no matter what. Anyone else having that problem? Do I need to install any additional software maybe? Or any other solutions? Any help would be greatly appriciated.

greetz
and thanks
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:12 AM   #399
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Maybe go to microsoft.com and download the latest version of the dot net framework.

It works fine for me. The only "bug" I see is that it allows you to move the call range to a higher % than the steal range.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:26 AM   #400
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
when to call a re-shove---

I have one chart that gives the pot odds necessary for that

I'll try to clean it up and post it
We treat every re-raise as a shove right?

So let's say we are in the CO, and we Raise 2.5X. We get re-raised by the Btn & the blinds fold. Our Effective stack is 20BB.

Now we have to call 17.5BB for a pot of 1.5+(2*20) = 41.5. This gives us 42.1% pot odds, so our equity needs to be >42.1%
vs. TT+,AQs,AK reraise range:
with 99+,AQs,AK -> 47%
with 99+,AJs,KQs,AQ -> 43.7%
with 99+,ATs,AJ,KQ -> 39.6%

So in this case we would call his reraise with 99+,AJs,KQs,AQo .. perhaps adding AJo
Is this line of thinking correct for these situations?


What it generally boils down to in Re-raise situations is that you need to tighten up considerably since you don't have Fold-Equity, and your hand is likely up against a range of very good hands, thus low Hand-Equity. The only way to counter this seems to be playing only your best hands vs. reraises.
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