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Old 11-28-2007, 12:18 AM   #326
Nick Rivers
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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The biggest fullstack winners are 5/10 are like 3PTBB and then usually move up and are gone. Almost all the long term winners at this stake are like 1-2PTBB.

I find these threads ******edly funny.
You're quite misinformed.
No. You are. GG idiot.
NO U FGT!
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:45 AM   #327
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

M2TR,

This is from a recent post in this forum. Is the BB a "good" or "bad" short stacker playing in the following hand, and why? Is his stack too deep? Is the min-raise bad for some reason? Is this an example of good or bad short stack play?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($32)
BB ($14.05)
UTG ($20.35)
UTG+1 ($18.55)
MP1 ($34.20)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($23.35)
CO ($24.65)
Hero ($20.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K , T .
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB raises to $1, UTG calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.75, SB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5.50) 2, 2, T(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5.5, ...
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:46 AM   #328
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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M2TR,

This is from a recent post in this forum. Is the BB a "good" or "bad" short stacker playing in the following hand, and why? Is his stack too deep? Is the min-raise bad for some reason? Is this an example of good or bad short stack play?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($32)
BB ($14.05)
UTG ($20.35)
UTG+1 ($18.55)
MP1 ($34.20)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($23.35)
CO ($24.65)
Hero ($20.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K , T .
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB raises to $1,...
This puts me on such tilt. He's not a Choo Choo. He's just a fish.
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:49 AM   #329
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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This puts me on such tilt. He's not a Choo Choo. He's just a fish.
I figured as much. But why? What is he doing wrong in this hand if he were trying to be a Choo Choo? If he's going to play at all, should have had a shorter stack and just pushed preflop given the number of limpers?
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:57 AM   #330
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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This puts me on such tilt. He's not a Choo Choo. He's just a fish.
I figured as much. But why? What is he doing wrong in this hand if he were trying to be a Choo Choo? If he's going to play at all, should have had a shorter stack and just pushed preflop given the number of limpers?
Read the thread plz
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:07 AM   #331
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Thremp dude you are sucha doushe man, seriously just read all your posts in this thread and youll see what i mean.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:44 AM   #332
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Shortstacking is fun...when you run good
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:07 AM   #333
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Thremp dude you are sucha doushe man, seriously just read all your posts in this thread and youll see what i mean.
10000 posts - man they must have been quality - QFT - spread some love Thrush
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:48 PM   #334
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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MT2R, will you continue the lessons?
Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.
MYT2R is missing a ton on the subject of shortstacking 6max games , i would say he has about 70% of it and theres like 30% he probably hasnt figured out(or hasnt laid out there in the open,not sure
exactly, I don't pretend to know all
this is about all I know

I wish some more would share more

oh well

this is all I was able to learn from watching hand histories
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:55 PM   #335
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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MT2R,

Do you use game theory in spots where you're shoving a wide range (BB vs SB or BN open)?
If you're pushing a really wide range, how do you determine when to shove? Do you just shove top x% with most equity vs his probable calling range?
When you're shoving >40% does it really matter wether you have Q4s or T9o?
of course I adapt based on my opponents

this is what I get at with exploitive v equilibrium play

if your opponent will only call 5% in the BB, you're leaving money on the table by not pushing everything

yes...Q4s v T9o will matter based on whether your opponents are observant and adjust
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:56 PM   #336
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
M2TR,

This is from a recent post in this forum. Is the BB a "good" or "bad" short stacker playing in the following hand, and why? Is his stack too deep? Is the min-raise bad for some reason? Is this an example of good or bad short stack play?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($32)
BB ($14.05)
UTG ($20.35)
UTG+1 ($18.55)
MP1 ($34.20)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($23.35)
CO ($24.65)
Hero ($20.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K , T .
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB raises to $1, UTG calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.75, SB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5.50) 2, 2, T(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5.5, ...
>30 BBs is not a shortstack
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:03 PM   #337
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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I have a few questions for the teacher:
1. What bankroll management should use a shortstacker? If he plays like 20 BB stacks on 8 tables, is 25x20=500 BB bankroll enough?
I'd have much more than that....like 100 short buys so that one is never too worried

Quote:

2. Do you use PokerTracker/PAHUD when shortstacking? If yes, then what stats are displayed on the HUD?
ummm...yeah...I pretty much know the regs stats by heart, but that doesn't matter since most regs adjust how they play v me. OBviously, VPIP/PFR, ATSB, FTBS, C=BET, FCBET, and so many others

Quote:

3. Does it work on lower levels where the preflop aggression is not as high? What is the lowest level do you tried this style and what were the results?
of course it works....you just don't need to use near as many tools
the Ed Miller 2-street game will dominate the lower talent players

Quote:

+1. What does "cut range" and "but range" mean?
cutoff
button
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:20 PM   #338
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

MT2R, I am glad you returned to "your thread" - thought you might have been intimidated to not give out any more info when u stopped posting in this thread.

I have a few questions for you as well:

.) Started datamining on FTP some and there seem to be 3 regs at the highest levels: kinetica, gamblegambel and 40putts. Whats your opinion of kinetika and gamblegambel? Did you notice differences in their games?

.) Is it pretty standard for a Shortstacker to stack off with 1010 in raised pot on Q84r flop (1 overcard non coordinated flops) vs 24/20 type guys?
(say SS open raises from CO, BB calls)

.) I have noticed some of the 3 shortstackers mentioned check fold some flops. Are these just the pure blind steals with ATC or is there spots where the SS would c/f AK, AQ?
(The flops were not too coordinated IIRC)

.) This may not apply to the levels you play, but how do you handle AK, AQ in the blinds after 3 guys limped? (do you raise to 5-7BB trying to get HU and then push the flop? Do you push right away? Smaller Raise or vary the play?

.) Does the resteal lesson just apply to being in the BB and to a lesser extent the SB? (or do you use it on the button as well considering the blinds are yet to act behind you)...

Again thanks for all the information you have already shared, and hopefully we can keep this thread going.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:30 PM   #339
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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MT2R, I am glad you returned to "your thread" - thought you might have been intimidated to not give out any more info when u stopped posting in this thread.
nah...just been out of town for awhile... a few people called me ******ed or some such variant for giving away info for free, but no intimidation... i am trying to cut back on the internet groups, it's way too serious business (blame goes to myself here just as much as anyone)... sick of arguing sports stuff until I'm exasberated


Quote:

I have a few questions for you as well:

.) Started datamining on FTP some and there seem to be 3 regs at the highest levels: kinetica, gamblegambel and 40putts. Whats your opinion of kinetika and gamblegambel? Did you notice differences in their games?
hrm...this is dangerous...yes, there are other ss'ers. Yes, there might be something to learn from all of them. However, many are 2p2 regulars and we should not have threads that break down a specific 2p2ers playing style, how it works, how to counter. If we keep it to generalities, we can say I saw a successful shortie opening up 2X on the button...why/why not? There are some differences between all shorties at the high stakes-they are not bots there. We could learn from all of them just as we can learn from successful fullies.

Quote:

.) Is it pretty standard for a Shortstacker to stack off with 1010 in raised pot on Q84r flop (1 overcard non coordinated flops) vs 24/20 type guys?
(say SS open raises from CO, BB calls)
depends on the level, but yes
especially at higher stakes, the hands end up heads-up quite a bit and there is alot of aggression with lower hand values. The big blind in that hand could have paired any of the board, T9, JT, or just be acting with 'air' as it is a board that is likely to have missed the stealing range. I'd felt there with TT all the time as a shorty. This ties back to the lesson on how, sometimes, a 2 street game can be powerful. Run some pokerstove or whatever to see how the typical blind steal hand fits the Q84r flop. It's very common for one to just c/r with air verse what appears to be a missed c-bet.

Quote:

.) I have noticed some of the 3 shortstackers mentioned check fold some flops. Are these just the pure blind steals with ATC or is there spots where the SS would c/f AK, AQ?
(The flops were not too coordinated IIRC)
hmmm....not sure
I wonder what the villains' stats were. I can see it more in multiway pots. OFten, it will just be a plain steal. However, the beauty of the shortstack is that you don't need to bet the flop to get your whole stack in by the river. It's a good idea to occassionally check your 'way ahead' made hands as well, such as AK on a k72r flop. Occassionally... Hell, i've tried just c-betting 80% of the time regardless of my hand (when the computer clock minute showed 0-7, it was a c-bet...8s and 9s were no c-bet). The differing results were minimal. However, I'm convinced that such a method isn't theoretically optimal. Right now, I mainly study postflop play by looking at various sources. I find lots of the MTT hands are best for relevant effective stack sizes, however there are differences in that there is less fold equity (players not afraid to bust like a MTT), more history verse villains, and less personal fear of busting (you can rebuy all the time as well).


Quote:

.) This may not apply to the levels you play, but how do you handle AK, AQ in the blinds after 3 guys limped? (do you raise to 5-7BB trying to get HU and then push the flop? Do you push right away? Smaller Raise or vary the play?
Depends on the villains and level
if someone will call with a worse hand, or if it's a raise verse a pair, I'll just push. The dead money from everyone is enough to give the odds when racing.

The plan to raise enough preflop to set up a flop push is good against players that fold too much on the flop and/or players that will call the raises with dominated hands

[quote]

.) Does the resteal lesson just apply to being in the BB and to a lesser extent the SB? (or do you use it on the button as well considering the blinds are yet to act behind you)... [/qoute]
resteal applies everywhere

of course, the further you are from the bigblind, the more you have to tighten up as a player left to act might wake up with a monster or just want to gamble with you.
Honestly, the ranges are so tight verse most early position openers that it will only make a minimal difference. My general rule of thumb is to play just a little bit tighter if there are still players left to act. I suppose one could do the math and get even more specific.


Quote:

Again thanks for all the information you have already shared, and hopefully we can keep this thread going.
agreed.....I really want to know what the other 30% of stuff is
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:06 AM   #340
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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For example, our effective stack is 20BBs. The initial raiser uses the 28.8% range for stealing and opens up 3BBs. If our previous play with the player makes us think he'll call with teh 19.8% range earlier, it's +ev to push 55+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+ (yes, I've done the math on all of these things).
Quote:
It all became a math equation since it became a one-street game.

let's put it all in terms of blinds

it works out to something like this:
f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E)) > 0
where
f = % of time initial raiser folds to push
c = % of time initial raiser calls push
R = Open raise size of initial raiser
w = win % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range
l = loss % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range

the solution is to simplify for w and find out what win pct your hand needs verse a villain calling range.


w > ( (c-1)(R+1.5)/c + E) / (19E/10 +57/40)
Can someone show me how this math works out?

Using the numbers from MT2R's example, this is what I got...

c = .198/.288 = .6875
R = 3
E = 20

Therefore w > (.6875-1)*(3.5+1)/.6875 + 20)/(1.9*20+1.425)
And after simplifying I get w > 45.54%

That doesn't match up with MT2R's range of 55+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+, which corresponds to a win % of over 55%.

Anyone see where I'm going wrong?

Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:20 AM   #341
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

yeah...about to respond to your PM, but glad you posted it here....I haven't been publicly posting any PMs without permission


Your math is exactly right in that you need w > 45.54%

However, that 'w' is for each individual hand verse the range at play, not for the whole range that you push

you look to see which hands exceed that winrate verse the calling range

the equation spits back +ev hands v range

what I've looked at is which hands exceed that winrate v the calling ranges---I posted the individual hands v range data earlier to help those with the initiative to use it. I haven't gone the step or two beyond that in posting other than to put up an image of what it looks like, because I'm still debating whether it's worth it to put out a guide that any Tom, Dick, or Jane could use.

Here is each individual hand verse the 19.8% calling range
AA 85.173%
KK 76.945%
QQ 70.444%
JJ 64.862%
TT 59.333%
99 53.979%
88 50.709%
77 48.543%
66 46.729%
55 45.657%
44 45.101%
33 44.526%
22 43.910%
AKS 64.464%
AQS 60.535%
AJS 57.292%
ATS 54.147%
A9S 49.061%
A8S 46.285%
A7S 45.173%
A6S 44.633%
A5S 45.393%
A4S 45.183%
A3S 44.962%
A2S 44.725%
AKO 62.762%
AQO 58.532%
AJO 55.058%
ATO 51.688%
A9O 46.224%
A8O 43.221%
A7O 42.007%
A6O 41.426%
A5O 42.260%
A4O 42.030%
A3O 41.787%
A2O 41.525%
KQS 51.696%
KJS 48.494%
KTS 45.447%
K9S 40.746%
K8S 38.582%
K7S 38.958%
K6S 38.707%
K5S 38.560%
K4S 38.308%
K3S 38.025%
K2S 37.721%
KQO 49.140%
KJO 45.709%
KTO 42.443%
K9O 37.380%
K8O 35.044%
K7O 35.437%
K6O 35.169%
K5O 35.026%
K4O 34.751%
K3O 34.442%
K2O 34.110%
QJS 43.181%
QTS 40.275%
Q9S 37.064%
Q8S 36.224%
Q7S 35.648%
Q6S 35.641%
Q5S 35.572%
Q4S 35.296%
Q3S 34.980%
Q2S 34.640%
QJO 40.062%
QTO 36.946%
Q9O 33.472%
Q8O 32.568%
Q7O 31.950%
Q6O 31.943%
Q5O 31.884%
Q4O 31.584%
Q3O 31.239%
Q2O 30.867%
JTS 38.139%
J9S 35.855%
J8S 35.063%
J7S 34.463%
J6S 33.312%
J5S 33.506%
J4S 33.226%
J3S 32.889%
J2S 32.527%
JTO 34.688%
J9O 32.216%
J8O 31.361%
J7O 30.716%
J6O 29.489%
J5O 29.713%
J4O 29.408%
J3O 29.042%
J2O 28.647%
T9S 35.996%
T8S 35.231%
T7S 34.604%
T6S 33.369%
T5S 32.351%
T4S 32.295%
T3S 31.956%
T2S 31.592%
T9O 32.396%
T8O 31.568%
T7O 30.892%
T6O 29.576%
T5O 28.504%
T4O 28.441%
T3O 28.073%
T2O 27.676%
98S 36.127%
97S 35.615%
96S 34.387%
95S 33.285%
94S 31.970%
93S 31.910%
92S 31.555%
98O 32.545%
97O 31.998%
96O 30.694%
95O 29.532%
94O 28.122%
93O 28.056%
87S 36.602%
76S 36.563%
65S 36.340%
54S 36.246%
43S 34.695%
32S 33.062%
87O 33.060%
76O 33.033%
65O 32.814%
54O 32.731%
43O 31.068%
32O 29.315%
86S 35.469%
75S 35.567%
64S 35.184%
53S 34.995%
42S 33.399%

I picked out the hands with w>45.54% as the +ev ones
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Old 12-02-2007, 08:05 PM   #342
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

MT2R,

whats the lowest level you stortstacked at and what site?

I ask, cuz I have tried a little on Pokerstars NL10 and NL25, and either I haven't played enough hands .. but I don't remeber ever getting a hand that was +EV to push reraise.
This is due to both - people not having high enough PFR and there not being a raise when I did finally get a good hand in the blinds....

Do you have a general rule for the ratio between "Preflop Raise %" and "Calls the resteal push"... I realize this is very hard to nail down in general since it depends on each Villain. *Was that 2:1 ratio just an example u used or is it reasonable that if someone steals with 29% they call yuo with about 65% of the rasing hands)

It seems the more likely villain is to fold the wider our pushing range can be since we need less %Equity when we do get called.

The weird thing is I am doing better at Full Ring Shortstacking since I tried the 6max shortstacking (might all be variance)...

I would still like to hear your thoughts on playing AKo from the BB after a few limpers...
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:43 PM   #343
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I went through some of those HH's you posted of 40putts and I have noticed that he will top up to 20bb if he gets to even 17bb. What do you think his reasoning for this is?
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:22 PM   #344
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by DJSHAD0W View Post
MT2R,

whats the lowest level you stortstacked at and what site?

I ask, cuz I have tried a little on Pokerstars NL10 and NL25, and either I haven't played enough hands .. but I don't remeber ever getting a hand that was +EV to push reraise.
This is due to both - people not having high enough PFR and there not being a raise when I did finally get a good hand in the blinds....

Do you have a general rule for the ratio between "Preflop Raise %" and "Calls the resteal push"... I realize this is very hard to nail down in general since it depends on each Villain. *Was that 2:1 ratio just an example u used or is it reasonable that if someone steals with 29% they call yuo with about 65% of the rasing hands)

It seems the more likely villain is to fold the wider our pushing range can be since we need less %Equity when we do get called.

The weird thing is I am doing better at Full Ring Shortstacking since I tried the 6max shortstacking (might all be variance)...

I would still like to hear your thoughts on playing AKo from the BB after a few limpers...
lowest level is 100NL at pokerstars

like I said earlier, my strategy works more in higher buyin games because they are much more aggressive both preflop and postflop

if you're shorting the low stakes, my best advice is to just go with Ed Miller advice






playing AKo from the BB after a few limpers...
well, if I think they'll call with a worse hand, Push

otherwise, bet enough so that a pot bet on the flop is allin
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:23 PM   #345
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Originally Posted by Moneyball16 View Post
I went through some of those HH's you posted of 40putts and I have noticed that he will top up to 20bb if he gets to even 17bb. What do you think his reasoning for this is?
I think he's the best 17 to 23BB player ever and just feels comfortable with that and not having to adjust to a lower BB level
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:54 AM   #346
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

MyTurn2raise, I read this thread for a few hours, then decided to try short stacking myself 2/4 FR, I didnt find much fullring content in here and tried my own strategy, I was open shoving monsters and 5xing them Preflop 2 vary my game, anyways after 569 hands I was +316$, the question I have is in Fullring what do I do preflop Utg+Ep with hands like 22-99 and hands like A/10s in Mp or K/Q in Mp + hands like A/9s on cutoff with 20bb or less.

Last question a spot came up where, I had 15bb player in Mp mini raised pf 2 callers I had J/8s in bb should I shove? Flick in 4$ or fold?


Best thread I have ever read on here.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:32 PM   #347
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

quit trolling, go to pocketfives.com, they think trolling is funny
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:16 AM   #348
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

a 2p2 member recently linked me a very nice piece of software which can help with many things Bulk hand evaluation

many thanks gtg



yeah...one could be a pro rat holer
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Old 01-23-2008, 03:06 PM   #349
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
lowest level is 100NL at pokerstars
like I said earlier, my strategy works more in higher buyin games because they are much more aggressive both preflop and postflop

if you're shorting the low stakes, my best advice is to just go with Ed Miller advice
Bear in mind I'm very much a newbie, I had never played hold'em (or any form of poker for that matter) before november 2007, I've read GSIH and NLHTP, and understood a good part of it. I've got about 20k lifetime hands, all short stacked

I've fiddled around with the hand ranges, especially at equilibrium (calling range is the same as raising range, a worst case scenario). From what I gather, a fundamental difference between what Mr. Raise suggests and Mr. Miller's basic advice (among other things, certainly) is that some hands that Miller would recommend to fold would get reraised all-in, depending if the effective stack size, initial raiser raise size (though raise size doesn't matter at equilibrium) and position call for it.

I've pre-calculated a few ranges in Excel and programmed a couple macros so the answer is always only 6 mouse-clicks away. Quicker than charts.
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Old 01-24-2008, 01:42 AM   #350
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelWeaver View Post
Bear in mind I'm very much a newbie, I had never played hold'em (or any form of poker for that matter) before november 2007, I've read GSIH and NLHTP, and understood a good part of it. I've got about 20k lifetime hands, all short stacked

I've fiddled around with the hand ranges, especially at equilibrium (calling range is the same as raising range, a worst case scenario). From what I gather, a fundamental difference between what Mr. Raise suggests and Mr. Miller's basic advice (among other things, certainly) is that some hands that Miller would recommend to fold would get reraised all-in, depending if the effective stack size, initial raiser raise size (though raise size doesn't matter at equilibrium) and position call for it.

I've pre-calculated a few ranges in Excel and programmed a couple macros so the answer is always only 6 mouse-clicks away. Quicker than charts.
you're right...that is a big difference

Mr. Miller is dealing with one type of villain whereas the shortstacking advocated here tries to exploit games that feature TAGs through LAGs.... not fullring grinders and loose-passives





anyway, I still get quite a few questions on this stuff, so some recent points
--appears the 40putts hands on sendspace have expired, I'll try to host from somewhere more permanent


--sklansky-chubukov numbers (responding to a PM about using SC numbers for blind and button pushes)

SC numbers are not an optimal solution for the problems here

with software such as SNGWizard out there, one can easily come up with much better ranges of what to push and what not to push based on the characteristics of the opponents

exploitive strategies are worth a whole lot more here compared to equilibrium strategies

--further questions/intricacies

I'm not really interested in coaching and/or staking deals. Search for others if that is your intent. However, I have no problem with us all trying to flesh out more details in this thread or even someone posting a video/hand history here.


I'm not very sharp on my shortstacking game
of late, 95% of my play is fullstack
I short when I want to squeeze in a half hour or so session
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