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Old 11-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #301
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Quote:
MT2R, will you continue the lessons?
Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.
Well, there are 500 books on limit HE, so yeah, probably there is more to add. Variations on a theme, of course.
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:09 PM   #302
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

I have a few questions for the teacher:
1. What bankroll management should use a shortstacker? If he plays like 20 BB stacks on 8 tables, is 25x20=500 BB bankroll enough?
2. Do you use PokerTracker/PAHUD when shortstacking? If yes, then what stats are displayed on the HUD?
3. Does it work on lower levels where the preflop aggression is not as high? What is the lowest level do you tried this style and what were the results?

+1. What does "cut range" and "but range" mean?
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:06 PM   #303
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

1. I know a guy (cough) small winner -1400bb and -2200bb runs this year.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:29 PM   #304
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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1. I know a guy (cough) small winner -1400bb and -2200bb runs this year.
Try more like 1000.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:50 PM   #305
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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1. I know a guy (cough) small winner -1400bb and -2200bb runs this year.
Try more like 1000.
I'd much rather have tried that. Or are you saying 1000bb for a good BR? If so I agree, just don't suck as bad as me/ move down
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:20 PM   #306
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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Quote:
Quote:
1. I know a guy (cough) small winner -1400bb and -2200bb runs this year.
Try more like 1000.
I'd much rather have tried that. Or are you saying 1000bb for a good BR? If so I agree, just don't suck as bad as me/ move down
No, I meant like substantial winners have >1k BB downswings.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:37 PM   #307
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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prove me wrong then. please.
I imagine kinetica at FTP does far better than your 1-2BB/100 mark, and he has been seen shortstacking at the highest stakes available on many occasions. I don't think a guy would go from clobbering 8 tables of 6-max 5-10 to shortstacking because he felt like it was time for a demotion.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:22 PM   #308
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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prove me wrong then. please.
I imagine kinetica at FTP does far better than your 1-2BB/100 mark, and he has been seen shortstacking at the highest stakes available on many occasions. I don't think a guy would go from clobbering 8 tables of 6-max 5-10 to shortstacking because he felt like it was time for a demotion.
The biggest fullstack winners are 5/10 are like 3PTBB and then usually move up and are gone. Almost all the long term winners at this stake are like 1-2PTBB.

I find these threads ******edly funny.
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:06 PM   #309
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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prove me wrong then. please.
I imagine kinetica at FTP does far better than your 1-2BB/100 mark, and he has been seen shortstacking at the highest stakes available on many occasions. I don't think a guy would go from clobbering 8 tables of 6-max 5-10 to shortstacking because he felt like it was time for a demotion.
he was never a good full stack player, he'd admit this now(everyone was "good" pre-frist). he is probably one of the top 3 SSers ive ever played vs.

i think hes in the 1-2 ptbb/100 range for 1020
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:21 PM   #310
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

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prove me wrong then. please.
I imagine kinetica at FTP does far better than your 1-2BB/100 mark, and he has been seen shortstacking at the highest stakes available on many occasions. I don't think a guy would go from clobbering 8 tables of 6-max 5-10 to shortstacking because he felt like it was time for a demotion.
he was never a good full stack player, he'd admit this now(everyone was "good" pre-frist). he is probably one of the top 3 SSers ive ever played vs.

i think hes in the 1-2 ptbb/100 range for 1020
Like you have any ability to judge good Choo Choo from bad LOL.
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:11 AM   #311
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

M2TR,

Thank you for taking the time to post about short stacking in the form of "lessons."

I just finished the thread, as it exists now, and if I ignore the colorful personal attacks and "e-peens" (whatever that means), I think this is one of the most intersting threads I've read in a long time. It's the flip side to CMR's "Pooh-Bah - Crushing Short Stacks" thread.

Please keep posting.

Please ignore the personal attacks.

I hope the mods let this go a little longer while you still have any useful information.

And I hope the mods put a link to this thread next to the link in the "Full Ring Master Sticky and FAQ - Read This First!" post right below the link to CMR's post.

Great work so far. Please keep going.

Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:22 PM   #312
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
other ranges I should look at

22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54 s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
34.7%


22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,A7o+,KT o+,QTo+,JTo
24.9%



If anyone wants to look at one of those and post it...go ahead


believe it or not, it doesn't need to get more specific as the hands don't change all that much
22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,A7o+,KT o+,QTo+,JTo
24.9%


AA 84.479%
KK 76.030%
QQ 71.640%
JJ 67.398%
TT 63.082%
99 58.681%
88 55.910%
77 53.210%
66 51.001%
55 49.095%
44 47.132%
33 45.193%
22 43.249%
AKs 63.235%
AQs 60.502%
AJs 57.891%
ATs 55.383%
A9s 50.834%
A8s 48.650%
A7s 46.778%
A6s 45.515%
A5s 45.811%
A4s 45.096%
A3s 44.514%
A2s 43.910%
AKo 61.403%
AQo 58.471%
AJo 55.677%
ATo 53.003%
A9o 48.131%
A8o 45.775%
A7o 43.768%
A6o 42.381%
A5o 42.704%
A4o 41.925%
A3o 41.296%
A2o 40.642%
KQs 50.637%
KJs 48.276%
KTs 46.046%
K9s 42.825%
K8s 41.269%
K7s 40.900%
K6s 40.855%
K5s 40.331%
K4s 39.722%
K3s 39.130%
K2s 38.525%
KQo 47.991%
KJo 45.464%
KTo 43.085%
K9o 39.589%
K8o 37.954%
K7o 37.558%
K6o 37.500%
K5o 36.941%
K4o 36.280%
K3o 35.643%
K2o 34.992%
QJs 45.426%
QTs 43.204%
Q9s 40.798%
Q8s 39.514%
Q7s 38.110%
Q6s 38.335%
Q5s 37.853%
Q4s 37.240%
Q3s 36.619%
Q2s 35.985%
QJo 42.451%
QTo 40.083%
Q9o 37.481%
Q8o 36.120%
Q7o 34.624%
Q6o 34.856%
Q5o 34.342%
Q4o 33.676%
Q3o 33.010%
Q2o 32.326%
JTs 41.795%
J9s 40.064%
J8s 38.789%
J7s 37.379%
J6s 36.468%
J5s 36.238%
J4s 35.632%
J3s 34.996%
J2s 34.345%
JTo 38.597%
J9o 36.726%
J8o 35.373%
J7o 33.871%
J6o 32.890%
J5o 32.647%
J4o 31.989%
J3o 31.306%
J2o 30.606%
T9s 40.190%
T8s 38.813%
T7s 37.392%
T6s 36.441%
T5s 35.005%
T4s 34.641%
T3s 34.000%
T2s 33.343%
T9o 36.847%
T8o 35.430%
T7o 33.914%
T6o 32.889%
T5o 31.358%
T4o 30.960%
T3o 30.273%
T2o 29.565%
98s 39.654%
97s 38.240%
96s 37.288%
95s 35.845%
94s 34.251%
93s 33.906%
92s 33.265%
98o 36.298%
97o 34.840%
96o 33.817%
95o 32.277%
94o 30.566%
93o 30.196%
92o 29.507%
87s 38.753%
86s 37.787%
85s 36.386%
84s 34.783%
83s 33.185%
82s 32.828%
87o 35.369%
86o 34.380%
85o 32.886%
84o 31.165%
83o 29.457%
82o 29.073%
76s 38.135%
75s 36.755%
74s 35.185%
73s 33.568%
72s 31.946%
76o 34.723%
75o 33.303%
74o 31.617%
73o 29.889%
72o 28.154%
65s 37.563%
64s 36.056%
63s 34.459%
62s 32.829%
65o 34.126%
64o 32.559%
63o 30.853%
62o 29.111%
54s 36.880%
53s 35.317%
52s 33.697%
54o 33.458%
53o 31.790%
52o 30.058%
43s 34.703%
42s 33.116%
43o 31.149%
42o 29.454%
32s 32.436%
32o 28.733%

Thanks MTTR!


gTg
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:25 PM   #313
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
CMR's "Pooh-Bah - Crushing Short Stacks" thread.
Link, please (sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread)?
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #314
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
other ranges I should look at

22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54 s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
34.7%


22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,A7o+,KT o+,QTo+,JTo
24.9%



If anyone wants to look at one of those and post it...go ahead


believe it or not, it doesn't need to get more specific as the hands don't change all that much
Caveat: When I c/p hand range to pokerstove, I get 35.7% instead of 34.7%.

22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54 s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
34.7% gTg(35.7%)gTg

AA 84.681%
KK 76.594%
QQ 73.153%
JJ 69.723%
TT 66.160%
99 61.798%
88 58.381%
77 55.958%
66 53.851%
55 51.777%
44 49.631%
33 47.634%
22 45.639%
AKs 65.133%
AQs 63.110%
AJs 61.176%
ATs 59.194%
A9s 56.008%
A8s 53.173%
A7s 51.270%
A6s 49.603%
A5s 49.385%
A4s 48.396%
A3s 47.758%
A2s 47.166%
AKo 63.357%
AQo 61.193%
AJo 59.135%
ATo 57.016%
A9o 53.606%
A8o 50.573%
A7o 48.520%
A6o 46.722%
A5o 46.501%
A4o 45.426%
A3o 44.733%
A2o 44.095%
KQs 52.960%
KJs 51.302%
KTs 49.702%
K9s 46.764%
K8s 44.359%
K7s 43.894%
K6s 43.454%
K5s 42.820%
K4s 42.164%
K3s 41.569%
K2s 41.004%
KQo 50.378%
KJo 48.613%
KTo 46.900%
K9o 43.758%
K8o 41.167%
K7o 40.675%
K6o 40.197%
K5o 39.527%
K4o 38.808%
K3o 38.160%
K2o 37.548%
QJs 48.849%
QTs 47.249%
Q9s 44.329%
Q8s 42.482%
Q7s 41.167%
Q6s 40.990%
Q5s 40.394%
Q4s 39.743%
Q3s 39.134%
Q2s 38.539%
QJo 46.025%
QTo 44.313%
Q9o 41.190%
Q8o 39.207%
Q7o 37.806%
Q6o 37.610%
Q5o 36.980%
Q4o 36.267%
Q3o 35.604%
Q2o 34.960%
JTs 45.792%
J9s 42.856%
J8s 41.370%
J7s 40.009%
J6s 38.738%
J5s 38.397%
J4s 37.758%
J3s 37.143%
J2s 36.524%
JTo 42.788%
J9o 39.649%
J8o 38.025%
J7o 36.600%
J6o 35.238%
J5o 34.883%
J4o 34.183%
J3o 33.514%
J2o 32.844%
T9s 42.012%
T8s 40.863%
T7s 39.594%
T6s 38.317%
T5s 36.795%
T4s 36.408%
T3s 35.797%
T2s 35.166%
T9o 38.775%
T8o 37.504%
T7o 36.192%
T6o 34.823%
T5o 33.206%
T4o 32.777%
T3o 32.112%
T2o 31.430%
98s 40.720%
97s 39.509%
96s 38.205%
95s 36.664%
94s 35.048%
93s 34.686%
92s 34.052%
98o 37.360%
97o 36.090%
96o 34.723%
95o 33.086%
94o 31.343%
93o 30.946%
92o 30.261%
87s 40.355%
86s 39.102%
85s 37.560%
84s 35.954%
83s 34.346%
82s 34.006%
87o 37.007%
86o 35.674%
85o 34.070%
84o 32.337%
83o 30.608%
82o 30.240%
76s 39.524%
75s 38.055%
74s 36.457%
73s 34.860%
72s 33.248%
76o 36.151%
75o 34.603%
74o 32.913%
73o 31.196%
72o 29.469%
65s 38.561%
64s 37.078%
63s 35.489%
62s 33.866%
65o 35.149%
64o 33.596%
63o 31.887%
62o 30.149%
54s 37.793%
53s 36.273%
52s 34.652%
54o 34.344%
53o 32.747%
52o 31.010%
43s 35.635%
42s 34.047%
43o 32.081%
42o 30.382%
32s 33.442%
32o 29.746%

Thanks again MTTR!!!!!

gTg
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:33 PM   #315
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
CMR's "Pooh-Bah - Crushing Short Stacks" thread.
Link, please (sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread)?
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12157664&an=&amp ;page=0&vc=1

gTg
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:02 PM   #316
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

MT2R,

Do you use game theory in spots where you're shoving a wide range (BB vs SB or BN open)?
If you're pushing a really wide range, how do you determine when to shove? Do you just shove top x% with most equity vs his probable calling range?
When you're shoving >40% does it really matter wether you have Q4s or T9o?
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:30 PM   #317
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
MT2R, will you continue the lessons?
Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.
MYT2R is missing a ton on the subject of shortstacking 6max games , i would say he has about 70% of it and theres like 30% he probably hasnt figured out(or hasnt laid out there in the open,not sure
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:30 PM   #318
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
MT2R, will you continue the lessons?
Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.
MYT2R is missing a ton on the subject of shortstacking 6max games , i would say he has about 70% of it and theres like 30% he probably hasnt figured out(or hasnt laid out there in the open,not sure
Well JZO, would you enlighten us on the remaining 30% please? (or are u one of these I know but its too good to share types- oh noes the secrets coming out)
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:48 AM   #319
Albert Moulton
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
MT2R, will you continue the lessons?
Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.
MYT2R is missing a ton on the subject of shortstacking 6max games , i would say he has about 70% of it and theres like 30% he probably hasnt figured out(or hasnt laid out there in the open,not sure
Well, if ever there was a thread to share the extra 30% then it would be this one. Please do.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:02 AM   #320
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

LOLZ. Why don't you PM Imsa or Kurosh? Hahahaha. In fact why don't you PM CTS to post his main game theory ideas. In fact why don't you just ask the biggest winners in all HSNL games to submit a DB for you to analyze. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:25 AM   #321
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
The biggest fullstack winners are 5/10 are like 3PTBB and then usually move up and are gone. Almost all the long term winners at this stake are like 1-2PTBB.

I find these threads ******edly funny.
You're quite misinformed.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:12 AM   #322
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
The biggest fullstack winners are 5/10 are like 3PTBB and then usually move up and are gone. Almost all the long term winners at this stake are like 1-2PTBB.

I find these threads ******edly funny.
You're quite misinformed.
No. You are. GG idiot.
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:35 PM   #323
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
LOLZ. Why don't you PM Imsa or Kurosh? Hahahaha. In fact why don't you PM CTS to post his main game theory ideas. In fact why don't you just ask the biggest winners in all HSNL games to submit a DB for you to analyze. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
What is the point in this attitude? You could have said that diplomatically instead of being insulting.
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:28 PM   #324
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
Quote:
LOLZ. Why don't you PM Imsa or Kurosh? Hahahaha. In fact why don't you PM CTS to post his main game theory ideas. In fact why don't you just ask the biggest winners in all HSNL games to submit a DB for you to analyze. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
What is the point in this attitude? You could have said that diplomatically instead of being insulting.
Its way more fun to type LOLOLOLOLOLOL than to reasonably say that many of the finer points of SS play also apply to deepstack. It isn't an entirely different game (to an extent) and having atleast somewhat of an understanding of various ideas will help.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:49 PM   #325
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Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

Quote:
LOLZ. Why don't you PM Imsa or Kurosh? Hahahaha. In fact why don't you PM CTS to post his main game theory ideas. In fact why don't you just ask the biggest winners in all HSNL games to submit a DB for you to analyze. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I honestly think it's pretty funny to see you run around a strat forum saying, "I know something you don't know! And I'll never tell you! And you'll never guess! MoooooHAHAHA!!!!"

After all, the whole point of a strat forum is to share concepts, ideas, and advice with other poker enthusiasts in the hopes that a rising tide floats all boats.

If you don't like sharing, then that's fine. Don't share. But you should stop trolling in an otherwise very interesting thread. Even if the OP's lessons contain only a fraction of what you know, it's still more than I knew before I'd read it. And I appreciate it. And I'd like to see more. I would hope that you might be helpful and contribute. But barring that, it would be nice if you just stopped making this post so long with petty, off-top rants.

I hope the OP keeps going.
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