Wow, best thread ever. Thanks for revealing these tidbits along with thread/blog links in order to help people find their own answers. Incredibly helpful.

Btw, while I spent the last 3 hours reading and digesting this thread I was sweating LittleZen multitabling NL5k/NL2k for a few hours and checked out his HHs. Very standard, nothing out of line and he was only going in with big pairs AQ+. I'll be sure to do my own datamining of high stakes games at FTP and elsewhere to expand on your ideas.

So he only pushed, what, JJ+ and AQ+?

TT+, AQ+. I saw one raise in LP w. A7, and cbet a 7 high board, and shoved turn. The other night I saw him 4bet ai from CO w. KQo vs Genius28 who 3bet him from button and won. Otherwise, he plays a very tight game. I'll continue monitoring him though.

Btw, check out the hornets nest I started at nvg with littlezen as the main topic. All I wanted to know is simply how he is doing in the HS stars games and now it has evolved into another big war between fullies and SS'ers. The comments made by timex are laugh out loud good.

that littlezen thread is funny

It just shows how wrong I was in the past
I thought ss'ing knowledge had to be kept secret and that online poker would change drastically with a guide on how to do it. Turns out I was wrong. You can put up a simple guide and it mostly will not make a difference as it still requires poker talent.

However, there is still alot of fear and name calling...sadness. I hoped this thread would move the factions beyond that..... oh well.

???
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=111442

This thread?

argh.... you found this thread

please keep your misinformation to the littlezen thread

Of course MyTurn2Raise, as I tried many times to teach better BR management/poker skills to my degen poker/gambling friend who always loses his roll to higher and higher games and then tilts at online BJ to boot, it shows to me that people either ignore good advice because it's too hard to implement, takes too much discipline, or are simply not intelligent enough to comprehend what is being shown to them. However, to people who want to learn, not afraid to put in some hard work, you have helped us greatly.

damnit timex, you were not suppossed to be reading this thread...... I wouldn't have made my comment if I knew you'd see this.

You know, this ain't an easy thread to find... How I found it is lol. I googled '20 bb shortstacking', found a thread in flopturnraise.com discussing the topic. Some guy linked a thread on 2+2 'how to crush shortstackers, read op and skimmed the rest, saw that a guy named 'myturn2raise' was getting a lot of attention for his contrarian view, searched him, and found this thread.

Juding that this thread has only 3.9k views versus the thread I made yesterday which is topping 6k views now shows that this info is still widely unknown to the vast majority of 2+2ers let alone the poker community in general.

or you can search shortstacking on google and find HajiShirazu's Donkey Devastation blog


oh yeah....view numbers are off for this thread since the majority of it was before the conversion to the new vBulletin software

MyTurn2Raise:
Yeah...the old software thread had about 340 replies with 6500 views. The vBulletin software started at 340 replies and 340 views which is now over 4000 views. So there have been well over 10000 views of this thread.

gTg

Didn't know about the views reset because of the software update. However, 10k is still less views than the micro stakes full ring january thread.

point taken

My guess is about 5-7 people have really taken advantage of this thread to make some money

More have learned about countering certain small stack strategies



There has not been a large scale change in the games even with the steps to winning being laid out right here

because you didn't do anything that was previously unknown to any shortstacker that can break even. Nothing you have said is of any consequence, you just saved people from having to think about the first 10k hands they play. I learned pretty much everything laid out in this thread in like a week of play.

exactly right

So I don't see your point. You taught people how to break even or be a marginal loser. When you were thinking about posting this I actually thought you might have groundbreaking information, but once it was posted I really don't think its going to do any harm. If you follow this advice you might be an annoying shortstacker, but you most certainly won't be a good one and there is a huge difference. Good shortstacks will mix things up and play situations that can't be taught on a message board. There is still no SS strat that I know of that will completely alter the game.

ummm....
you'll be a winner playing with what I posted... not breakeven or a marginal loser...
I know from doing it myself and from numerous PMs I received over this thread of people thanking me for giving them the tools to make some really decent sums of bank

that should be enough to bring out the Romanian and Chinese sweatshops

having looked at many datamines, just playing with what I posted would be a higher hourly than most the fullring grinders that play full time that post in the fullring forums.

I don't believe I claimed to know more or post anything that the top shortstackers did not already know.... so, it's really a strawman to say this thread fails because it doesn't provide that.

What it does provide is
1) the solid fundamentals to a strategy that grinds out a small, but above most grinders, hourly
2) Some interesting things for people to think about when countering a shortstack
3) made explicit some things on shortstacking that were not previously in print on the forums that I follow


Of course, winrate could be improved (dramatically so--perhaps doubled winrates at a few stake levels higher) by knowing more poker... LDO

It seems you contest that one could win by just studying this thread... I have numerous anecdotal stories that claim otherwise, but
1) we'll never have a true double-blind study on the winrates of those who try shortstacking based on this thread
2) we possibly disagree on what is fully entailed in this thread and what studying it means

BTW--- I do wish this thread did go further into concepts/situations

I certainly am not the best shortstacker and there are still theoretical leaps I have yet to make

Basically, all I can add with my present state of knowledge is more and more detailed examples of the concepts laid out previously....I find that work to be rather tedious

I haven't read this full thread in a while, but I must say, MT2R, that between this thread and CMAR's I have started seeing where the short-stackers are making moves in good spots and I've been able to call them more marginally in some +EV spots. In fact, I think that since my BR is large enough to sustain the hits, I'm usually happy to take neutral EV spots against them because I can sustain the variance and am usually happy to gambool for 20bbs or less with some dead money in the pot.

In fact, I think that's the strategy to have against SS'rs. You just have to decide how much money you are willing to gambooooool for. If your roll is big enough, you can gamble more often and eventually, the house wins!

I'll try to help with the tedious stuff. Just let me know what you want "crunched". My br is better now and I can devote more time to study.

Caveat: My work product ain't what it used to be. You should review/check same.

gTg

ps Have you given any thought to ss limit holdem? I have some stuff from barryg1 and others, but haven't examined it yet.

SS'ing limit hold'em appears to have no real advantage because the stack sizes are less relevant in limit than they are in no-limit. Stars forces you to buy in for at least 5 big bets and at least at the higher levels it seems as if putting 5 big bets into the pot are around the max for one pot.

Teaser for a project I've been working on...



4 slide bar moves vs. 6 mouse-clicks

that is.... ummmmmm.... oooooooooooooops

and here I've been working off of tons of charts I've put together