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Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Lose patience in cash games (5NL)

08-18-2017 , 11:51 AM
Over the past few months I have been crushing NL2 for about 25bb/100 as I was aggressive against the correct opponents and very rarely faced anybody fighting back as the regs there are pretty tight. However after the move up to NL5 I have experienced players 3 betting and 4 betting me more often and calling my 3 bets and being very sticky on every flop. I have currently played 2.3k hands and am running at -17bb/100 and down $20. This is a mix of tilt plus running bad such as 2 outer on the river when I went all in on turn and losing KK < AK and been coolered KK vs AA twice.

However my biggest problem I find is tilt management when I'm not flopping any cards and when I do I always get beat such as when I flop two pair they have a straight or get there with their flush/straight draws on the river. In my head I think, I haven't flopped a hand in so long I can't fold now convincing myself I fold too much. In those 2k hands I have flopped a set twice and both players folded on the flop both times in a 3 way pot. I will post my stats below but if somebody could spot my possible leaks and possibly give me on advice in keeping my emotions in check when I can't win a pot at all that would be great

PS: I believe I am good enough to beat this stake but almost feel like at times I am getting run over. And I know the stats may look really really bad but most of it is because of tilt.

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Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-18-2017 , 05:56 PM
That sample size is really too small to make any judgements. It's highly likely that you are running badly (not hitting sets, getting coolered etc) and that may even lead you to be making poor decisions subsequently. Give it 10k hands and re-evaluate. Don't play if you feel like you're not playing your best. Re: the 4bets - There aren't any competent LAGs playing 5nl so either those people had QQ+ or they were aggro-tards.

When you move up it's weird cos you kind of suspect that everyone is going to be amazingly better. It's quite often that we over adjust and play sub-optimally as a result. In reality as you move up the changes are fairly incremental. The fish are still fish, the regs just get slightly better. If you were crushing 2nl over a decent sample then you'll be a winner at 5nl too for sure.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-19-2017 , 05:12 AM
Thanks for the advice. I am going to try and keep my cool a little bit more and not spew as much. I feel like I have a reputation now among the regs that I am a spew tard so I could use that to my advantage now. I have been trying to play slightly more LAG which has worked sometimes until I try to double barrel the wrong opponent which costs me a lot. I will give it another 10k-15k hands and repost my stats to see where I am at.

Thanks.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-19-2017 , 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC96
I have been trying to play slightly more LAG which has worked sometimes until I try to double barrel the wrong opponent which costs me a lot.
Moving up to a new stake AND opening up your range/style at the same time is not a good combination. Make one change at a time because otherwise you're not going to be sure what is the cause of any given outcomes.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-20-2017 , 08:00 PM
So tonight's session was unbelievably bad. Didn't hit any flops, I don't believe I tilted too much but was very frustrating. Literally didn't hit a pair on the flop for most of the night and whenever I did I would get rivered by straight/flush draws or 2 pairs while none of my draws came through.



Was playing on a table full of fish also so my c bets rarely worked and the tighter regs seemed to have a strong enough range to call my double barrels every time. The worst was when I decided to triple barrel a river which shown a 4 card straight and flush on board and decided to bet big on river to rep it and the guy still called with bottom pair. My question is: What do you do when you can't flop anything and your c bets never work?

Some of my big hands that went against me, any tips would be helpful
Spoiler:
PokerStars Hand #174591829724: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2017/08/20 23:37:35 WET [2017/08/20 18:37:35 ET]
Table 'Chara' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: duduska18 ($5.17 in chips)
Seat 2: ChrisC96 ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: afftor777 ($7.48 in chips)
Seat 5: skarletps ($5 in chips)
Seat 6: Miguel0602 ($4.40 in chips)
Seat 8: chis94 ($14.07 in chips)
Seat 9: Qassen ($5.51 in chips)
ChrisC96: posts small blind $0.02
afftor777: posts big blind $0.05
nightaway8: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChrisC96 [Jd Qd]
skarletps: folds
Miguel0602: folds
chis94: folds
Qassen: folds
duduska18: folds
ChrisC96: raises $0.10 to $0.15
afftor777: raises $0.30 to $0.45
ChrisC96: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [Kd 4d 6h]
ChrisC96: checks
afftor777: bets $0.86
ChrisC96: raises $3.69 to $4.55 and is all-in
afftor777: calls $3.69
*** TURN *** [Kd 4d 6h] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 4d 6h 4h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChrisC96: shows [Jd Qd] (a flush, Ace high)
afftor777: shows [6s 6c] (a full house, Sixes full of Fours)
afftor777 collected $9.58 from pot
ChrisC96 said, "nice"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10 | Rake $0.42
Board [Kd 4d 6h 4h Ad]
Seat 1: duduska18 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ChrisC96 (small blind) showed [Jd Qd] and lost with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: afftor777 (big blind) showed [6s 6c] and won ($9.58) with a full house, Sixes full of Fours
Seat 5: skarletps folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Miguel0602 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: chis94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Qassen folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Spoiler:
PokerStars Hand #174587448653: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2017/08/20 21:57:21 WET [2017/08/20 16:57:21 ET]
Table 'Gawain' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: fcgustavito ($6.34 in chips)
Seat 5: tema041 ($1.76 in chips)
Seat 6: wergo21 ($9.89 in chips)
Seat 7: kev393 ($4.68 in chips)
Seat 8: ChrisC96 ($5.67 in chips)
Seat 9: Qassen ($5.20 in chips)
wergo21: posts small blind $0.02
kev393: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChrisC96 [Ad Qd]
ChrisC96: raises $0.07 to $0.12
Qassen: folds
fcgustavito: folds
tema041: folds
wergo21: folds
kev393: calls $0.07
*** FLOP *** [Ac 6h Qc]
kev393: checks
ChrisC96: bets $0.16
kev393: raises $0.29 to $0.45
ChrisC96: raises $0.75 to $1.20
kev393: raises $3.36 to $4.56 and is all-in
ChrisC96: calls $3.36
*** TURN *** [Ac 6h Qc] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Ac 6h Qc 9d] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kev393: shows [6s 6c] (three of a kind, Sixes)
ChrisC96: shows [Ad Qd] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
kev393 collected $8.99 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9.38 | Rake $0.39
Board [Ac 6h Qc 9d Jc]
Seat 2: fcgustavito folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: tema041 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: wergo21 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: kev393 (big blind) showed [6s 6c] and won ($8.99) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 8: ChrisC96 showed [Ad Qd] and lost with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 9: Qassen folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Spoiler:
PokerStars Hand #174593741835: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2017/08/21 0:32:12 WET [2017/08/20 19:32:12 ET]
Table 'Laomedon' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: skarletps ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 2: numelen ($11.44 in chips)
Seat 3: ChrisC96 ($8.31 in chips)
Seat 4: Vacanai ($5.14 in chips)
Seat 5: RockyChad99 ($4 in chips)
Seat 6: Aqest ($5.06 in chips)
Seat 7: roniGLHF ($5.22 in chips)
Seat 8: yyeeahh ($4.98 in chips)
Seat 9: nightaway8 ($5.02 in chips)
Vacanai: posts small blind $0.02
RockyChad99: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChrisC96 [As Ks]
Aqest: folds
roniGLHF: folds
Aqest leaves the table
yyeeahh: folds
nightaway8: folds
skarletps: folds
numelen: folds
ChrisC96: raises $0.07 to $0.12
Vacanai: folds
QueensU117 joins the table at seat #6
RockyChad99: raises $0.07 to $0.19
ChrisC96: raises $8.12 to $8.31 and is all-in
RockyChad99: calls $3.81 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($4.31) returned to ChrisC96
*** FLOP *** [2c Qd Qc]
*** TURN *** [2c Qd Qc] [Th]
*** RIVER *** [2c Qd Qc Th] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RockyChad99: shows [Jd Jc] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
ChrisC96: shows [As Ks] (a pair of Queens)
RockyChad99 collected $7.69 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.02 | Rake $0.33
Board [2c Qd Qc Th 7d]
Seat 1: skarletps folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: numelen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ChrisC96 (button) showed [As Ks] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: Vacanai (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: RockyChad99 (big blind) showed [Jd Jc] and won ($7.69) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: Aqest folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: roniGLHF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: yyeeahh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: nightaway8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Spoiler:
PokerStars Hand #174591684588: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2017/08/20 23:33:52 WET [2017/08/20 18:33:52 ET]
Table 'Saga' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: AlSid777 ($5.52 in chips)
Seat 3: MarcusDani ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 4: yyeeahh ($5.55 in chips)
Seat 5: ChrisC96 ($9.51 in chips)
Seat 6: skarletps ($5.89 in chips)
Seat 7: 25deMayoBsAs ($5.67 in chips)
Seat 8: merovinjian ($3.66 in chips)
Seat 9: VanillaSoul ($5 in chips)
ChrisC96: posts small blind $0.02
skarletps: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChrisC96 [Jd Js]
25deMayoBsAs: folds
merovinjian: raises $0.05 to $0.10
VanillaSoul: folds
AlSid777: folds
MarcusDani: folds
yyeeahh: folds
ChrisC96: raises $0.23 to $0.33
skarletps: folds
merovinjian: calls $0.23
*** FLOP *** [As Jh Qd]
ChrisC96: bets $0.48
merovinjian: calls $0.48
*** TURN *** [As Jh Qd] [3s]
ChrisC96: bets $1.25
merovinjian: calls $1.25
*** RIVER *** [As Jh Qd 3s] [7c]
ChrisC96: bets $7.45 and is all-in
merovinjian: calls $1.60 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($5.85) returned to ChrisC96
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChrisC96: shows [Jd Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
merovinjian: shows [Th Kh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
merovinjian collected $7.06 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.37 | Rake $0.31
Board [As Jh Qd 3s 7c]
Seat 1: AlSid777 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: MarcusDani folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: yyeeahh (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ChrisC96 (small blind) showed [Jd Js] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 6: skarletps (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: 25deMayoBsAs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: merovinjian showed [Th Kh] and won ($7.06) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 9: VanillaSoul folded before Flop (didn't bet)




I won 1 stack by getting there with top pair and flush draw vs two pair and half a stack with AA vs QQ. The rest I explained up top and my red line dropped about 100bb due to me having to c/f or my c bet failing. Do you guys think I ran really bad or do I have a major leak somewhere?
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-20-2017 , 10:35 PM
Can you convert hands next time bud it's really hard to get through.

Hand one play bad

His close to pot bet is a give away and you need fold equity to make a shove +EV. I see that folding is hard here. With any kind of implied odds calling is ok but oop with no made hand and just the D's going for you (hitting Q or J isn't ideal) I'd need to be certain of getting his stack if we hit to carry on.

Hand two cooler unless V is a Nitty type

Hand three play bad

Your rarely getting called by AQ> here. Just a complete splurge. Unless V is a complete aggro donk who you know will call a wide range for fun.

Hand four massive cooler


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Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 04:36 AM
Thanks for the reply. The first hand I was getting reraised constantly by this guy and in my head thought he was trying to push me around so thought I had enough fold equity to get him off maybe higher aces that missed and middle pp and have about 40% equity against a lone king. (This guy was slightly aggro and had saw him fold after pot sized c bet once before)

Second hand I was considering calling flop and evaluating turn but thought the only hand I was behind was 66 and could get it in against all his Broadway's with a pair and flush draw or a combo draw (gut shot and flush draw). Against 66 I still have a chance of four outs on two streets to hit the nuts.

Third hand I may have spazzed out a little but ace king on button facing a 3 bet from blinds is a monster and as it was suited gave me better equity against his pairs, plus this guy had a low FST so thought with fold equity it is slightly profitable.

Fourth hand I could have slowed down but this guy was loose passive so is doing this with all his broadway 2 pair and pair and gut shots so thought I wanted max value from his draws and another case of not wanting to be too nitty as I lost to one hand as he would have reraised AA and QQ pre.

I don't think I played bad but how do I beat these games against loose passive and the odd good regs when c bets don't work on standard boards and you're not flopping hands.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 04:53 AM
I mean the obvious answer is to just stay focused, and not play any different since you think you're just gonna walk all over everyone. All players, good and bad experience variance.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 05:17 AM
I definitely don't expect that but it is very rare to flop well. I have tried sitting back and waiting for hands but they don't come around too often and when they do I usually just get folds on flop/turn. i know variance comes and hits us all but when I am flopping pretty well heads up like this and always getting the money in bad like so, it can be very tilting.

I am going to take a break from cash and study it a bit more and play SNG's for the next week and hopefully come back refreshed and fully focused.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC96
What do you do when you can't flop anything and your c bets never work?
Stop c-betting. Every time you try and bluff a calling station god kills a kitten.

Yes it's frustrating as all hell when you're sitting there watching a table full of fish donate with terrible hands. You're there going "I can't wait to pick up a hand so that I can take these guys to value-town". The thing is that in order for that plan to work you need to have something of value.

Sometimes the most +EV thing to do is to just check/fold. Remember that that money you put in the pot isn't yours any longer. You don't have any entitlement to that pot just because you opened it.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 06:58 AM
Understood. Maybe I am playing a little bit too loose and trying almost too hard to win the small pots with no equity. Thanks for the replies guys and the tips even though I secretly deep down know this. Moving back down to NL2 will definitely hurt my game so I will start the grind again in a few days.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 08:21 PM
UPDATE
Session Stats:
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I felt like I played much tighter mainly on the button to take advantage of the tight blind players. Managed to flop a few good hands with my big hands and get paid off for 1/2 to full stacks in the later part of the session. I ran quite bad at the start of the session mainly by two pairs and draws catching up to my TPTK/GK hands by the river and my strong draws bricking when I had correct pot odds against opponents who I believe would pay me off if I hit, but didn't lose too much from it. I cbet much less than usual even if it was a great board to c bet and just accepted to give away a pot if I didn't hit my pair.

Was aching to raise my flush draws on the flop heads up but decided to just call and take my implied odds. I assume this is the best way to play at these stakes.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-21-2017 , 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC96
UPDATE

Session Stats:

Spoiler:


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I felt like I played much tighter mainly on the button to take advantage of the tight blind players. Managed to flop a few good hands with my big hands and get paid off for 1/2 to full stacks in the later part of the session. I ran quite bad at the start of the session mainly by two pairs and draws catching up to my TPTK/GK hands by the river and my strong draws bricking when I had correct pot odds against opponents who I believe would pay me off if I hit, but didn't lose too much from it. I cbet much less than usual even if it was a great board to c bet and just accepted to give away a pot if I didn't hit my pair.



Was aching to raise my flush draws on the flop heads up but decided to just call and take my implied odds. I assume this is the best way to play at these stakes.
Good man!!

Why would you play tighter to take advantage of tight blind players?

Well raising with equity is a better idea than pure bluffing but fold equity and implied odds have a balanced relationship. If you believe you have sufficient implied odds to call you likely don't have the fold equity to raise as a semi bluff. It's a judgement call.

But yeah bluffing at the micros isn't for the feint hearted haha!


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Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-22-2017 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe16
Why would you play tighter to take advantage of tight blind players?
My bad, I was meant to say that I played tighter all around except for when I was button and there were tight players in the blinds as raising 70% of hands against some opponents in +ev based on both blinds folding pre.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote
08-28-2017 , 07:39 PM
I agree with the above post not to change your style of play while moving up limits. Too many variables. Stick to what you've been doing in 2NL and ride out the variance in 5NL. Once you get to 50k+ hands you'll have a better idea of how you're playing.
Lose patience in cash games (5NL) Quote

      
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