those 2 go hand in hand are the most overrated things in online poker right now, thinking way too much about red lines instead of just playing better poker and thinking that a LAG style easily solves this problem which is simply not true...

+1.

if you can't range well enough, it wont matter what preflop style you play.

you and i approach LAG very differently. i am a solid winning TAG player who understands the fundamentals very well. i understand board textures, cbetting, and opponents. i can range people correctly a majority of the time. i'm not trying to just spew into every pot.

whatever you are saying about red lines does not make sense, as that's not what i'm worried about. i'm worried about playing the best possible style that will make me the most money. i don't think there's anything easy about LAG style at all, in fact quite the opposite. u make far too many assumptions. it's as if you think it's impossible to play LAG the right way. difficult yes, but there are players who are very successful with this technique.

Well, I think it's good for a learning poker player to question anything and everything. Now perhaps you can't do anything about the red line. That's a possibility, but perhaps you can. And if you can, why not? Micro stakes have a lot of new players who are unsure about a lot. I can't really fault them too much for asking these questions

You can play TAG instead of nitty and have a breakeven/slightly up redline. Moving from nit to LAG will crush you imo.

oh wow I love uNL they talk about relevant stuff!

imo any one who can win at poker is doing well. But i also think that anyone winning over 2PTBB is doing pretty good in these days games at any stakes over 25nl. TBH I think full ring is almost harder then HU and 6 max for a bunch of reasons, the highest of which is game selection. Like HU is pretty easy to game select but if you can find 2 fish at a 6 max table you are laughing. I'm pretty drunk but there you go., honestly though if we could have a selection of win rates in this thread of old school regs for the past 2 years and they averaged over 2ptbb I would be very suprised, no offense to anyone but poker has gotten much harder. also PTBB/100 is sorta over rated here because full ring is all about an hourly rate. like why would you play 9 handed if you only played 2 tables.w

When did kurt become a mod?!?

almost no TAG will be able to do a slightly positive redline. almost no TAG will be able to keep a breakeven redline. The ones that do, are usually in the twilight zone between TAG and LAG (the 17/14 types).

Having a negative redline for a TAG is fine and normal. The important thing is the slope of that redline. A really bad slope needs work, but a nice -20* slope is fine (assuming the overall shape is alright)

The bigger determinants of redline WR come from stealing, 3B-ing, 4B-ing, and well-timed postflop pressure. These are things that LAGs do often, and TAGs do rarely. (and if a TAG did them more, then their stats would loosen up and thus they would look more like a LAG)

i'm going to make this clear one more time. LAG style should only be used by players who have excellent hand reading and board reading skills, along with the ability to play postflop on multiple streets. if some random monkey steps up and tries to implement this style, they will lose a lot of money a vast majority of the time. but if a player with solid fundamentals wants to attempt LAG in hopes of exposing opponent's weaknesses, you have to concede that there are some players who have the ability to do this.

also, imo, games are not necessarily tougher at all they are just much higher variance. 5bb/100 at 25nl is easily sustainable imo

not sure who this is directed at...but I am usually classified as a LAG...so I agree with you

I picked up a super-lag game and beat 25nl at double my lifetime winrate as a TAG. (<- had to include something about winrate to keep it germane) I have since left it behind and gone straight past TAG into nit as I moved up. Its a tool.

I agree with you completely about redline.

+2

There isn't a chance I could have played that loose and not hemorrhage money without my significant accumulated experience.

This is my graph from a few months ago (mix of 25NL and 50NL, about 2/3 of 25NL) :


my stats were 12.7/10.5 overall (12.8/10.6 from 25NL and 12.5/10.4 from 50NL) with a winrate of 3.29ptbb/100 (4.85 @ 25NL and 2.62 @ 50NL), I know its a very small sample but I believe its still possible to maintain a breakeven or slightly positive redline playing TAG. Also my 3bet was of 3.4% and my steal was 27%, so a lot of the redline comes from postflop play, IMO.

Stealing and 3betting is very important for the redline, but, no matter what you do preflop, if you play fit or fold postflop you are going to have a negative redline. (even more so with the "stantard" 4bb+1bb per limper raise size, which is a big raise)

Stats and Graphs Analysis Thread is located here. I suggest we keep the two conversations separate.

Jesus Christ, not again.

Kurt, put me on the COTW schedule for the next open slot.

Topic: "The Last Thread EVER Discussing Red Lines"

It is true. At least mine is postive.

Done and done. I will update the thread in the next few days.

i was saying you as in anyone that's in the thread. very nice article on becoming a LAG btw, definitely a good read.

i applaud you both. yet still stand on my statement that you are a rare player types, and you've transcended the standard nitTAG.

Also WRT to the bolded statement, you are correct about not being fit or fold helping the RL out signifcantly. But if a player sucks at bluffing well, then he will bleed like hell in both lines.

thanks =)

No money HU, everyone is solid.

Garon

This is more of a specific question. I've been 24-tabling 25NL FR for the first time as an experiment to see if I can beat it. I play a very tight style (10/8). Also I don't ever table select, whatever table with 8 players, I'm in there. Over 80K hands so far at WR 3bb/100 (1.5PT/100). Do you think this is a good enough sample size or do I need to try another month with this in order to move up 50NL? I would like to play 24 tables at 50NL as well.

I think having a good red is tough at 10NL. I noticed that the better my redline got, the worse my green was. Maybe it's sample size, but bluffs don't work enough to be profitable. As for 25NL, I'm not sure, but from my first shot, I remember that I had a really hard time getting to showdown with my good hands. People would always fold. If that's the case, then theoretically, I should be able to get folds even when I don't have the cards. It only makes sense to do it. Not doing so is leaving money on the table.

you will probably be able to do like .8PT/100-ish at 50NL 24 tabling like that. Just remember, the variance can be kind of sick...but 80K hands gives you an idea of WR

That's ptbb/100. As I'm getting closer to graduating college and with things falling into place I'm hoping to start playing weekly again instead of <7 days/month with hopes of becoming a reg at 100NL. Because of that I'm wanting to adjust to a more aggressive LP game so I was gonna move down to 10NL with my 340 buy-ins and push people around and practice hand reading for 10K hands playing something like 25/20. After that maybe 30K hands of the same at 25NL before I really figure out if I can be more than just a mediocre winner and attempt the same at 50NL/100NL.

imo the most overrated thing in online poker right now is preflop labels. LAG/TAG/nit blah blah.

It's 3-4BB. The big money is made postflop by hand reading and planning. Play hands in a way that's most +EV whether that be TAG or LAG or nit or hyper LAG or whatever wrt the specific situation you are in against table dynamic, player dynamic, position, etc variables.

The more hands you can play profitably in a situation the more LAG you become in that situation and the less hands you can play profitably in a situation the more nit you become.

Preflop "styles" should change every hand by that definition. Otherwise you're just playing off a starting hand chart.

the thing is most ppl tend to play the same way they play pre flop
like if they are agroo pre they will wanna be agroo post