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Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to 1/2 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 05-21-2017, 11:08 AM   #1
Pkr365
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Arrow KK shove? (2NL)

I was not sure if I should shove here? and whether the call on the turn was correct, I was multi-tabling and had a lot of action on other tables
(UTG+2 Villain on HUD is 38/13 from 24 hands). Thanks

[converted_hand][hand_history]Pacific, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37730367

SB: $1.95 (97.5 bb)
BB: $1.87 (93.5 bb)
UTG+2: $2.11 (105.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $2.96 (148 bb)
MP2: $3.04 (152 bb)
MP3: $0.77 (38.5 bb)
CO: $1.05 (52.5 bb)
BTN: $2.14 (107 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K K :: ::
UTG+2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, 5 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.27) 4 2 Q (3 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.12, Hero raises to $0.36, MP2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.24

Turn: ($0.99) 7 (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32

River: ($1.63) 6 (2 players)

Villain CHECKS,...

Hero?
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:57 AM   #2
krikara
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

You should be checking the river. Jamming or value betting the river isn't very practical in this situation because the villain took a weird line that can be a lot of sets and flushes. If you jam the river, you would be turning your KK into a bluff because barely any worse hands will be calling you.

Your stats on the villain over 30 hands is way too small of a sample size to determine you can jam the river for value. Best stick with the fundamentals unless you see the guy calling river shoves with one pairs and less or if you have more hands on the guy that indicates he's a fish.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:02 PM   #3
Pkr365
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krikara View Post
You should be checking the river. Jamming or value betting the river isn't very practical in this situation because the villain took a weird line that can be a lot of sets and flushes. If you jam the river, you would be turning your KK into a bluff because barely any worse hands will be calling you.

Your stats on the villain over 30 hands is way too small of a sample size to determine you can jam the river for value. Best stick with the fundamentals unless you see the guy calling river shoves with one pairs and less or if you have more hands on the guy that indicates he's a fish.
Thanks krikara

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Old 05-21-2017, 01:36 PM   #4
Pkr365
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

I did check on river and wanted some views. Appreciated

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Old 05-21-2017, 03:43 PM   #5
krikara
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pkr365 View Post
I did check on river and wanted some views. Appreciated

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On a side note, if you believe he has a weaker hand, believe he is willing to call you, and you wanted to extract value from the villain, you do it by raising the turn.

If he's a fish, then he'd call both your turn raise as well as your river shove. The difference is he can call your turn raise with flush draws, while he'll fold all the busted flushes on the river.
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Old 05-26-2017, 02:28 AM   #6
Nxia
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

I'd have raised the turn, villain is setting a weak price and out of the normal flow of checking to the raiser. Make a note of what villain does when you raise as it may be a good future bluffing spot to move them off a stronger middling type hand.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:14 AM   #7
Pkr365
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

Cheers think should have extracted value by betting the turn as though took down the pot i think i missed an opportunity. I agree stat sample too low. I'm starting to be more steadfast with effectively ignoring low samples especially as so often i seem to start on tables with excellent cards and have been a fish according to HM2 or a rock in other card dead instances

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Old 05-27-2017, 08:18 PM   #8
the_glaive
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

You should check on the river. As pretty as your hand was pre-flop, you could easily be beaten by a flush or a set.
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:54 PM   #9
fishfood69er
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

bet fold river
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Old 05-28-2017, 02:27 AM   #10
Pkr365
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

I checked and won the pot and wasnt sure if had missed value

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Old 05-28-2017, 05:37 AM   #11
krikara
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

You're not losing value and bet fold isn't a good move here.

The only value you are getting from a river bet is off of hands like AQ and QJ. And if he is calling you down with hands like QJ and QT for 3 streets of value, then you can expect him to be loose enough to have Qx giving him a lot of two pairs. You also don't expect him to call a river bet with Q rag.

Sure people can argue that the villain doesn't have many sets here since he didnt raise the flop or turn. However the amount of 2 pairs, straights, and flushes you are losing to heavily outweigh the number of hands you can get value you from AQ QJ QT.

There's no need to overrep your hand when you have good showdown value.
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Old 05-28-2017, 05:40 AM   #12
Pkr365
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

Thanks for your comments. Good stuff

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Old 06-10-2017, 11:33 AM   #13
Stevenrizado
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

Not sure if I'm correct in this line, so please correct me if I'm wrong. (Playing for a while but noob in 2+2 posting)
Now, we don't have any stats on our villain here but it seems he decides his range is worth limp-calling. We got kings so we're obv happy and raise 4x, which I'd do as well.

You get called by MP2 + limper and stuck in the middle. Our villain donks into us with a half a pot. I'd be questioning myself what he'd be betting with. The raise seems fine to me, but it's a flop which he's never possibly beating you unless he's holding 22 or 44 to limp-call pre. Next to that you hold the backdoor for the flush in case necessary. I think I'd take the risk and call to let him hang himself and go full callstation. The merit is that you play your hand concealed and have him put in chips.

The downside is you could have a flushdraw behind you who is getting enormous odds to outdraw us, so choosing a raise over a call is still fine.

After the turn bet-call the river is a definite check. Flushdraws come in and we have some more than decent showdown value. The only thing you'd be getting some very very thin value from would be KQo, JQo or 10Qo, which seems a high risk to a low reward to me.

All things considered: a call on the flop would have some merit as well, but this play didn't seem off in any way.
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:47 PM   #14
coldeu
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

bet river
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:41 PM   #15
oc33rF
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

i would take another line so as played check river.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:14 AM   #16
TheGull
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Re: KK shove? (2NL)

7 on turn is pretty much the perfect card for us, so we have to raise big/jam turn. As played I agree with others, villain has taken such a weird line we have to check for caution. But I think betting is also +EV a lot of the time as well.
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