I've been playing poker as much as the next player, on average. Lately I've been questioning my thoughts on playing kings at the micros.

So many situations I've either seen, or been involved in, is calling an all in pre flop and going up against aces.

Happens more often then it doesn't, obviously taking player type and stack size into account.

For someone with a full stack, without lunatic/maniac/fish statistics, how many of you would fold kings when faced with an all in pre flop?

Cheers!


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I play 5nl and I’m never ever folding kings pre. Happy to get it in pre every time, though yes I will sometimes lose and it is one of the worst feelings in poker, it’s still profitable long term, and you have no reason to feel bad as long as your reasoning was sound

There are some clues that someone is at the very top of their range in the micros. For example, it’s rare to see a 4b with reasonable sizing that isn’t KK-AA. But even in that situation, there’s still a decent chance they have enough QQ or AK so that you’re not always totally beat. Plus people in the micros do show up with random trash in huge pots.

So yes, KK sometimes isn’t as certain of a winner as we feel it should be, but it’s still a winner. Get it in

Do you see players snap calling/raising all in with jacks, queens or AK often though? I see it with AK occasionally, but not nearly as often as aces or kings.

I appreciate your thoughts and input also, thanks


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People snap shove or call shoves with anything pre at the micros. Any pocket pair especially 88+, even any two broadways. It’s when they raise you with reasonable sizing (3-4x) that you should worry, because that is usually quite strong and may mean they want to build a pot without scaring you off by shoving. If you are very deep and want to play a lower variance game, you could flat a 3bet or 4bet, but I think you’re missing value

I’m curious to learn more about the circumstances you have in mind. Is it something like you open to 3bb, they shove over you with 100bb? In that case we have to call. Or are you seeing something else?

From the sound of it, I've had different experience online from yourself. Unless they are maniac/obvious fish (although a lot would argue most are fish at the micros lol from my 10K hands I've played (maybe a little more) at nl2, aces and kings usually play out the same way:

Raise 3bb, 3bet, all in, call. Pretty much 95 % of the time. Occasionally you see it with weaker hands but not often.

Unless you have won a few stacks, you can't really sit deep at nl2 or nl5 on 888 as the buy in is either $2 or $5

I completely agree that getting the most value is the way forward, but this situation happens so frequently in the future I'm considering folding kings if a player with ok hud stats snaps all in after a 3bet . Only considering though as it seems ludicrous lol

Describing my stats may help back up my point:

Big blinds won/100 hands

Aces: + 1072
Kings: - 616
Queens: 68
Jacks: 217
Tens: 911

The rest are plus. Mainly because I don't 4bet, or even 3bet if I'm up against a tag reg if I've got jacks or queens and the remaining pairs are from stacking up on sets.

The loss from the kings has came from the exact same scenario as described above.

It also must be noted that NL2 probably doesn't follow some of the usual plays you would expect at higher stakes (nl5, nl10, NL20)


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Wow, maybe the player populations are just very different. I’m at 5nl in ignition. I don’t know the 888 pool so maybe someone else could speak better to that. But it could be that you’ve just run bad with kings so far. It does happen

Maybe yeah, which wouldn't be something I'd be bothered about it as I understand there is a lot variance in the game. And maybe yeah it probably plays a lot different with a different pool and with it being nl5. I appreciate your input though, thanks


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But Rob how many times have you actually been all-in PF with KK in 10k hands? I'm a rec player with a modest 40k hands in the database (mixture of 2, 5, 10nl) and I've only got the money in eight times (FWIW, the hands who put the money in against me were 2xAA, 1xQQ, 1xJJ, 1x66, 2xAK, 1xQJ) and that's with VPIP/PFR/3bet of 100/98/93 with KK and I will quite happily stack off in pretty much any given situation.

kings are very good.
don't fold them pre.

According to my statistics:

Number of times dealt King King: 65
Number of all ins: 15
Number of all ins pre flop: 6

Winnings BB out of those 6: -236
Winnings BB from all in on the flop: -136
Winnings BB from all in on the turn: +34


So the losses going all in pre flop account for a third of the total losses when dealt King King.

I mean I'm not saying or arguing the point that kings should be folded pre flop, I was more interested to see how others thought.

Losing 2/3 after the flop raises others matters, and to be honest I didn't realise so much of that loss with the kings was due to post flop play until I've looked at these stats lol but my win rate has always been negative, and has steadily increased in the past month due to me actually studying the game and wanting to improve. I used to suck... well, a lot more than what I do now.




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Winnings BB out of those 6: x

That was winnings BB from all in pre flop. Sorry, I missed that out


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it's variance

Yeah, I understand


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There is one very strong read at the micro's: A limp/shove is (as good as) always AA.

In ALL other situations, getting it in with KK preflop is ++++EV. Don't be too result-oriented, be theory-oriented.

I think an AI preflop hand with AA vs KK tends to standout in our memory making us think it happens more often then it does because they are the 2 strongest starting hands. With that said, I had my KK run in AA twice within 10 hands the other day. I got tabled both times.

I have a couple of times over the past years where I've folded KK preflop but that is rare, I'm more likely to shove.

Yeah definitely, that's why I was interested to get some feedback. I mainly play nl2 and have had this line, and watched it plenty of times and the aces show more often than not. I do see some of the weaker players doing it with medium/higher pairs since I've started to give it more attention


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I think you are right. It wasn't till I looked up my stats on the poker software that I realised it wasn't as frequent as initially thought. Which situations did you fold the kings?


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