Hi all. Long time reader, finally decided to register. Had a question regarding a hand I played recently. I started playing poker again as I am hoping to play Seminole Hard Rock in FL next month. Trying to get my game in shape on the micros online and trying to work hard studying. This one I am not sure if I played it well or not.

This is on Global so no HUD and I don't have any notes on either Villan, although with V1 I instantly wrote that he open limped. Also if I see players limp or limp call I have been noting that so I haven't seen V2 limp or limp call yet. I have been playing tightly and while I don't have HUD stats. I do video record my sessions so I can go back and review hands (like his one) and based on counting hands I am playing somewhere around 13/11 give or take.

V1 UTG 31.2 BB
Hero UTG1 96.5 BB - JsJc
V2 HJ 132.9 BB

Global Poker Full Ring - .05/.10 (so you know it's micros)

UTG limps, I PFR to .45, HJ calls, UTG calls

Flop 15BB 7h8dTh

UTG checks, I bet 12.5 BB, HJ calls, UTG folds

Turn 40BB 4s

I bet 17.5BB, HJ calls

River 6d

I check, HJ bets 56.3 BB, I fold. (Note: His River bet was not a shove, but close. I had 62 BB at the time of the shove)

So I guess my questions:

- JJ raise with UTG limper is I assume standard or do I limp call? Note he is also short stacked.
- Thoughts on the flop 3/4 pot cbet? Should I have checked with HJ still to act given it was a connected board?
- Did I blow it with the low turn bet?
- Any chance Villan doesn't have a 5 or 9 at the River?
- And one more question, am I being too nitty with 13/11? The session prior I was 11/8 so that may be worse.

Thanks in advance. Looking forward to contributing.

- JJ raise with UTG limper is I assume standard or do I limp call? Note he is also short stacked.

Raise was standard and I like the size - the plan is to get it all in the middle against a 30BB stack unless the board scares you off (eg AKx).

- Thoughts on the flop 3/4 pot cbet? Should I have checked with HJ still to act given it was a connected board?

The situation's more complicated than we'd hoped for, since you're playing against two very different stack sizes.

Again, Cbet and sizing were fine - you have an overpair which is likely to be the best hand, villains are going to call with draws and all sorts of junk like [KT] [Q8] that you are way ahead of.

- Did I blow it with the low turn bet?

Don't think you blew it; turn card is unlikely to have improved villain's hand so you still have a lot of equity against his range. I'd bet 1/2 - 3/4 pot.

- Any chance Villain doesn't have a 5 or 9 at the River?

Nasty river card. Big river bets in the micros are likely to be for value and the board is now very coordinated...but villain might think his [KT] is good and bet it like this as well. Hard to say without knowing more about their tendencies. For me it's a fold.

- And one more question, am I being too nitty with 13/11? The session prior I was 11/8 so that may be worse.

I'd say that's on the tight side of okay. Try opening wider in LP and on the button, especially if you get the sense that the blinds don't defend much.

Hey, welcome,

JJ iso-raise? yes all day. no brainer.

I thought your action on the flop and turn was fine. You can play around with bet sizing. A lot of time I am raising 2.5x pre, plus 1bb for the limper, and 1/3 pot on the flop and more depending upon circs. Smaller bets help keep the pot smaller so you can let the hand go easier later against too much action. Bet sizing depends upon a lot of different factors. I recommend the book Modern Poker Theory by Acevedo but it is a little dense with advanced concepts. Carroter's Grinders Manual is great and user friendly and you can probably find it online for free. Both discuss bet sizing in detail.

The river is a toss up. A lot of aggressive players will bet when you check in that spot. If he is a maniac, you're going to have to call at least some of the time, versus an unknown player a fold is probably in order and versus a nit/rock definitely fold.

13/11 is too tight, yes. I have played at the Hardrock. My wife's family is from down there and we used to visit every Christmas for 10 days- 2 weeks and my deal with my wife was I would always get to break away from the in laws at least once to go play poker at the Hardrock.

The problem with being so tight, especially live, is that even the most unobservant opponents will notice that you just aren't playing much, that is like 3 or 4 hands an hour. People are going to put you on big hands and get out of your way or play drawing hands against you and try to stack you. Papa Bear is right, position is your friend, expand your range and mix it up more, especially in late position. A lot more.

Good luck, Magnum

- JJ raise with UTG limper is I assume standard or do I limp call? Note he is also short stacked.

Raise is good. Limping behind is asking for trouble and you have a premium and UTG is a fish. I like your size, I would raise 5x. With it being 10NL and vs a fish I think you could even raise more.

- Thoughts on the flop 3/4 pot cbet? Should I have checked with HJ still to act given it was a connected board?

Cbet is good and sizing is good. You'd probably cbet most your range here and the larger size is better because it is connected.

- Did I blow it with the low turn bet?

I would bet again just over 50% and you bet 44% so I don't think it's too bad.

- Any chance Villan doesn't have a 5 or 9 at the River?

Villain can have KQhh, KJhh, QJhh maybe QJdd, AQhh, AJhh. Bunch of top pair ATs-JTs. But they could have a lot of sets too.
You are getting around 30% pot odds to call and I worked out you probably have around 37% Eq. You build the pot when you most likely had the best hand and checked to let them bet their bluffs so I think you can call with no heart in your hand.

- And one more question, am I being too nitty with 13/11? The session prior I was 11/8 so that may be worse.

I think 13/11 is fine for online. Especially while you are learning/refreshing. You can add more hands as you get more comfortable. I have less experience live but am moving near to a Casino soon so I'm excited to see adjustments. From what I have played I think you need to judge the table more. Play more hands in position as mentioned. If the table is wild and you'll get paid on your value hands you can probably wait for them. If they are passive and nitty look for spots to take down pots with good equity semi bluffs.

What's up everybody? I think humanlab and papa bear are excellent players, I always tune in and read their posts here. I understand that this is beginner advice and I get it that live poker is different from online, I just still think that 13/11 is way too tight, and believe me, I have played tight poker for long periods of time throughout my poker career. 1) it is boring, 2) it is break even poker and 3) it is tilt inducing, for me anyway because when I wait around and play super tight for the whole session and then finally get pocket Kings and then lose my stack somehow, I'm just like aaaaaaargh. Or I get pocket Aces, and everybody folds.

I think you should use 40% as a default open range from the Button and expand or contract it from there based upon game conditions and specific opponent tendencies. I am not alone in thinking this. 30-40% from the Button is pretty standard.

Get Flopzilla to mess around with ranges. It is well worth the 20 dollars or whatever.

Poker is about position and people. The sooner you start playing position poker and get away from just playing your cards, the better.

One more thing about bet sizing, smaller bets impact something called "minimum defense frequency." Look up that phrase on 2+2 and the regular web. In part, to summarize, the smaller you bet, the wider you can open. So if you want to open with a wide range from late position - which you should want to do - you should think about reducing your bet size. That is why many payers min-raise from late position.

Finally, just to comment on one of the differences between live and online, there is actually a lot of limping in live games. This is not a bad thing. These passive, multiway games are good games. But you can't and should not play 13/11 in a game like that. You should be happy to limp along with 3 other players in late position or from the blinds with all sorts of hands that wouldn't normally fit into your tight range. Just keep in mind, you're frequently going to need better than top pair to win in one of these 5 way or 6 way pots. You're looking for flushes or straights or sets in these games. If the game is very aggressive, with a lot of 3 betting and everyone playing 3-4 hands an hour, and you're at a casino, switch tables.

Good luck everyone, thanks for the discussion. Magnum





I suggest opening 40% from the button

Thanks everyone for the comments. Looks like I played this hand OK i guess, minus maybe calling the river. I unfortunately had no info on this villan at the time so couldn't find a call. I probably did have mid 30% equity on the river, but no info so it sucked.

I think my biggest issue right now is not enough bluffs and I am going to start working that more into my games. I am finding when I have "the goods" people are folding left and right so that is likely a problem. I am not getting to many showdowns when I have made hands.

Funny you say live is full of limpers, I definitely agree with that and I am finding Global to have tons of limpers as well. Every session I have played in the last two weeks at least half the players at every table I have highlighted green as a limper. So this is definitely good practice for live play.

So if its limped to me and I am on the button, play a 40% range and the bottom of my range i can limp call? If it gets raised by one of the blinds am I calling with the bottom of this range? I guess that's where I need to mix in some 4 bet bluffs? And should I be limp calling CO at the bottom of the CO range or reserve that for the button?

I am watching a lot of videos by Poker Bank (SplitSuit) online and I also watch a lot of Jonathan Little's content as well.

Couldn't villan also have a lot of suited connectors? 65s 54s 98s T9s, maybe even some suited gappers like 97s. I also thought A9 and A5 were options, seems like a lot of people on Global play any Ax.

[QUOTE=ave1024;56976611]

So if its limped to me and I am on the button, play a 40% range and the bottom of my range i can limp call? If it gets raised by one of the blinds am I calling with the bottom of this range? I guess that's where I need to mix in some 4 bet bluffs? And should I be limp calling CO at the bottom of the CO range or reserve that for the button?


No I meant if the pot is unopened, in other words if it folds to you on the Button, you should open the pot for a raise with a very wide range. I would start with 40%. From the CO I'd do around 25%. If the blinds 3 bet you frequently or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves, then I would start scaling it back some. On the other hand, if both blinds are as tight as you, I think I could open for a raise with any 2 cards and show a profit. Really, I'm not exaggerating, if the SB and the BB are both playing less than 10% of hands, then I'll take the blinds with my steal raise somewhere around 85% of the time, and that doesn't account for times when the blinds play and I actually have a hand.

Against 1 limper I would basically treat the pot as if it were unopened. Vs 2-3 limpers, and if I were in LP, I would iso with typical top pair hands, like AT+, KJ+, TT+ or maybe even 77-99. But I would be very inclined to limp along with pretty much any hand that looked good, that includes small pairs, suited connectors, suited Bwy, 1 gappers, Axs and maybe more.

If you get raised by 1 of the blinds, you have to do some homework with the 'minimum defense frequency' I was talking about earlier. But you will have to continue one way or another with about 25-33% of your range. Since hopefully you are in position vs the 3 bettor you can flat/call the 3 bet more than you would if you were out of position but obviously you should be 4 betting the very best of your range and maybe some 4 bet bluffs. Be careful bluffing. If your opponents are bad, don't even worry about bluffing all that often, just wait until you have better than top pair and try to get some of their money out of its stack and onto the center of the table.

You asked about limp calling. You should not be open limping hardly at all. Limping along with multiple other limpers is different. If someone raises the pot big over 3-4 limpers and you are holding a hand lie 75s, then just let it go. You want to play these hands for cheap and multiway, not in a big pot versus an aggressive raiser, heads up.

GL, Magnum

Sometimes tight poker just ends up the nature of the beast, though. Like is opening ATo or 87s from EP going to show great rewards when we’re getting action in 3-4 spots every time we open the betting?


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Well I'm not advocating opening ATo and 87s from EP in FullRing. I was advocating 3 things,

1) playing much looser than 13/11, which is definitely considered a nit. That is objectively speaking. That is not just my opinion. 13/11 is for sure a nit. and

2) opening 40% from the button as a default opening range - maybe even wider than that depending upon your opponents.

and 3) being willing to overlimp and even cold call in late position, which would increase the 2% gap between VPIP and PFR and would also make the VPIP go up. i.e., it would make your stats less tight-aggressive and allow for more passivity but that is ok in multiway, passive games.

From utg, in a full ring game, I'll probably open somewhere around 7-8% of hands +/- depending upon game conditions and opponents. That would look something like 77+/ATs+/KJs+/QJs and AK-AQ.
I'll defend with maybe 1/3 of those combos. That is QQ+/AKs.AKo
If I get called, I am comfortable playing all of those hands out of position.

Below are hypothetical open ranges for each seat, out of the blinds, in full ring.

UTG = 8%
UTG +1 = 10%
UTG +2 = 12%
LJ = 15%
HJ = 18%
CO = 25%
B = 40%

If these are the ranges you open with, then your VPIP should be something like 18% and that still isn't exactly loose and that actually just accounts for 'raise first in' stats.

If you add in some 3 betting and some squeezing and some overlimping and some cold cold calling in late position, you will easily get your VPIP over 20%, probably more like 25%. That is still not really very loose BTW, it is just kind of typical reg stats. With some limping and cold calling, your gap between vpip and pfr will increase and your stats may end up looking something 24/17 which I think would be just fine and actually a lot better that 13/11.

Magnum

You played it absolutely fine.
You raised PF pricing the limp. You Double barrelled, you check/folded a very connected board on Riv OOP.
Standard.