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Old 10-13-2010, 01:55 AM   #101
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
Yeah, it's pretty obvious when you say it that way and standard advice 2+2 advice to stack off against a fish with TP, but not against a nit.

Thanks for your help. I'm trying to work on changing my game up a little so that I can play against some of the more TAGish players. I know I need to add some bluffs in, but I'm kind of trying to figure out the best way to do it, especially against opponents who can hand read a bit. Not necessarily a completely balanced game, but at least a little more so in that direction, especially in preparation for trying to crack through to small stakes.

Much obliged!
glgl with it =)
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:37 AM   #102
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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Ok, I still don't understand a lot of this. To make things easier let's assume there are no cards to come. Polarization makes sense to me in the following situation:
  • We're in position
  • It is checked to us
  • Our possible bet won't put us all-in

In other situations it's not so clear to me.

I like to visualise my ranges graphically - strong hands on the left, weak hands on the right. So in the above situation, if for a moment we don't bluff, our range looks like

valuebet | check behind

(so we valuebet our strongest hands, and check the rest behind)

If we decide we need to bluff a certain percentage of the time we pick hands at the lower end of the checking range since we don't lose any value if we have to fold to a check-raise.

valuebet | check behind | bluff

Now let's look at a different scenario. Again we're in position on the river, this time facing a bet. The pot size is such that we have only three options: folding, calling, or shoving. Once more, if we only consider value bets our range looks like

valueshove | call | fold

Now if we want to shove as a bluff we choose hands that we would usually fold. We don't pick calling hands (need to work out why), so the bluffs come from our folding range. Since we expect to lose when called it doesn't really matter which hands we pick. However, our chances of beating a bluff catcher are of course higher the better our hands are. Thus we bluff with the top of our folding range.

valueshove | call | bluff | fold

Not sure if this makes any sense and how this ties into polarization. Also this is all probably quite trivial. However, any comments or clarifications are welcome.
hmmm....I think this needs alot of work on it.
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:44 PM   #103
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

Re: Cangurino's post.

If we were to confine our discussion to polarisation OTR in HU pots - which is ok given it is one of the most common areas where polarisation might be in play - then I would make the following observations.

Let me just say - I don't think it is wholly flawed way of thinking about it but its not the way I would attempt to breakdown the possibilities.

You could start by dividing the scenarios by:
(a)Where we are facing a polarised situation.
(b)Where we choose to make a polarising action.

Or
What is it about the situation that makes it polarised?

(1) The mere act of any bet on a river may in and of itself be polarising.
(2) The villian type may be the determining influence in making a bet polarising that it might not otherwise be.
(3) The board texture/development may be the determining influence over polarising the position.
(4) The bet-sizing may be the determining influence in polarising the situation.
(5) The type of bet - e.g. a bet/3bet or a Check-raise - might be what is polarising the situation.

And in any number of combination of the factors above.

Also - a key driver over polarisation is price. What it is to be polarised by either Hero or Villian - is crucial to understanding what optimal actions should be.

So lets just go back to the breakdown of (a) and (b).

(a) Where you are facing a polarised situation from villian.
His range can be divided into 3 possibilities.
(a) Value
(b) Air
(c) Made-hands turned into bluffs

So your division of
Now let's look at a different scenario. Again we're in position on the river, this time facing a bet. The pot size is such that we have only three options: folding, calling, or shoving. Once more, if we only consider value bets our range looks like

valueshove | call | fold



So say villian is Nuts or Air.
Your calling range is that amount of your bluffcatching range that beats the combination of Nuts + Air with regards to the price.
Now - vs Nuts your range is worthless vs Air your range is a lock - so what do you choose to bluff catch with and how often?
Frequency and its relation to price is one way of looking at how what you should call with. If you are getting 3-1 - so you need villian to be bluffing 25% of the time - then it makes sense to call from a price perspective 25% of your bluffcatching range.
Thus you might say ok - I call with the top of my bluffcatching range and fold the bottom of my bluffcatching range.
But all bluff-catchers appear to be =.
So the types of hands you choose to bluff catch are those that make it more likely villian is actually bluffing. This is what I would describe as the 'topness' of top of your range in this spot.
One e.g. Having combinatorical blockers to the nuts.
Say you hold AA
on KKTT2 rainbow in a 3bet pot
And for whatever reason you feel that he never has Tx in his river shoving range and he does not having many Broadway Kings - and whatever previous actions/history/villian type - makes you think that he is polarised - then having Blockers to AK with AA reduce the amount of times he actually has something to shove. Perhaps not a perfect example but just illustrative. So either he has a King or he has Air and having AA blocks the times he has a King making it more likely he has Air.

The inverse can be true that if there is a busted draw and you have blockers to busted draws then it would make it more likely villian has nuts - so that might incline you away from bluff-catching and would be the 'bottomness' of the bottom of your range even though it might have more SDV than other holdings.

If (c) is operative - then the 'topness' of the top of your range changes because maybe having blockers to the nuts part of his range is less important and being able to beat his made hand bluffs is more important.

umm clearly there is alot more I could state on this topic.

FWIW - I have found that either watching HSNL HU matches either by sweating or watching video commentary on the topic is very valuable in understanding river polarisation. In my case watching on DC 2M2M bonus video - there is a very interesting discussion as well as any videos by Krantz, Ansky, FWF in HU videos has improved my understanding of it.

Hope that helps....maybe I will continue or not but I am done for now.

Last edited by DiggertheDog; 10-13-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:08 AM   #104
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

I know I'm several months late on this one, but wow, this article is terrific. Thank you.
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:10 PM   #105
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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I know I'm several months late on this one, but wow, this article is terrific. Thank you.
thanks a lot =) glad i was able to help
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:09 PM   #106
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

Thanks
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:05 PM   #107
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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Thanks
np
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:10 AM   #108
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

Hey Split, great article...one question regarding the Doyle/Lex hand:

I understand the river call, but can you walk me through Lex's thought process on the Turn call? Doyle has made a close to pot bet...doesn't this lead Lex to think he has it more times than not? If the Jack on the turn is essentially a blank to Doyle, what is he betting with? I mean, if the turn went check/check, I can then understand calling the river...but when Doyle pots the turn, I'm not even sure how Lex gets to the river.

Thanks!
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:17 AM   #109
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

*enters thread*.... *see's a book*... *bewildered why such a simple topic is so complicated*... *kicks l3nghty & leaves*
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:02 AM   #110
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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Hey Split, great article...one question regarding the Doyle/Lex hand:

I understand the river call, but can you walk me through Lex's thought process on the Turn call? Doyle has made a close to pot bet...doesn't this lead Lex to think he has it more times than not? If the Jack on the turn is essentially a blank to Doyle, what is he betting with? I mean, if the turn went check/check, I can then understand calling the river...but when Doyle pots the turn, I'm not even sure how Lex gets to the river.

Thanks!
i dunno. i personally don't know why he checked the flop (not like he's getting CR'd by doyle liberally imo, and he doesn't really have enough SDV to try and induce in most situations). but to be fair, doyle is still probably polarized on the turn (unlikely he would PSB 88 or w/e pair, so it has to be Jx+ or air)...but the whole line is odd given the flop check

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*enters thread*.... *see's a book*... *bewildered why such a simple topic is so complicated*... *kicks l3nghty & leaves*
soo...you didn't like it?
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:50 PM   #111
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

thanks a million for this
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:29 PM   #112
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

i didn't read it... it looks detailed and i just looked at the headings, looks like you touched everything and probably well explained, thought it was alil long is all... + i just wanted to kick l3nghty at the time
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:31 PM   #113
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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thanks a million for this
np =)

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i didn't read it... it looks detailed and i just looked at the headings, looks like you touched everything and probably well explained, thought it was alil long is all... + i just wanted to kick l3nghty at the time
i like to be thorough...but yea...i ramble at times =)
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:40 PM   #114
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

^^ mhmm you so need to do one on 40bb stacks though bro

even though u dont like to speak on that stack size, any advice on having a polarized 3bet range or having a bluff range at all when playing 40bb stack poker?... also any math on 40bb shoving light in a squeeze situation when 10-15bb is in the middle and possible dead $ pickup when u have medium sc, also what hands to do it with vs the original raiser type?

^^ seems like alot of info to give out, but any thing you feel comfortable speaking on is fine....
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:46 PM   #115
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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^^ mhmm you so need to do one on 40bb stacks though bro

even though u dont like to speak on that stack size, any advice on having a polarized 3bet range or having a bluff range at all when playing 40bb stack poker?... also any math on 40bb shoving light in a squeeze situation when 10-15bb is in the middle and possible dead $ pickup when u have medium sc, also what hands to do it with vs the original raiser type?

^^ seems like alot of info to give out, but any thing you feel comfortable speaking on is fine....
the EV formula for the shove:

EV = (Fold% * Pot) + (Call% * EE * (Pot + Stack)) - (Call% * (1-EE) * Stack)

I will make you do the work with things =) (think about logical FE, good estimated equity vs logical calling ranges, and try it with various hands (like A3s, A5o, AJo, 97s, JTo, etc.)

also, the whole advantage of playing with 40bb stacks is that you can 3bet super liberally, "threaten your stack" without actually exposing it, and apply massive pressure on those that open too wide and fold too much v your 3bets.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:51 PM   #116
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

^^ mhmm... 3bet sizing??... i changed mine from 10bb to 7.5bb, makes me feel less pot committed at times and 75% pot otf and about 60% ott gets the money in if called when i have a value hand... u like reducing the bet sizing due to stack diff or keep it at the std for 100bb(9-12bb)?
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:01 AM   #117
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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^^ mhmm... 3bet sizing??... i changed mine from 10bb to 7.5bb, makes me feel less pot committed at times and 75% pot otf and about 60% ott gets the money in if called when i have a value hand... u like reducing the bet sizing due to stack diff or keep it at the std for 100bb(9-12bb)?
do some math on it =)
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:05 AM   #118
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

^^ master of the short stack i wish you would speak more on it, hehe, but thx for the formula

1 last question!!

nothing related to theory or your game

what is the highest winrate or what kind of possible winrates u think is possible @ lets say 50-200nl playing a 40bb stack??... i ask this cause i see some guys who r successful and others who are breakeven and others losing horrendously, yes alot of factors are involved but in your opinion or experience whats possible or the highest you've seen??... also what is yours oh gr8 1!!?? ......
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:09 AM   #119
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

i dont play that stack size...so i have no real idea (and thus can't give you my WR playing it, lol). i think you can have an edge, but i think in most games you will have a better edge with full stacks.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:17 PM   #120
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

just 1 question reading this atm... why did u divide villains range's by 12 in the 4 ranges value/bluff thingie? why 12?
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:21 PM   #121
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

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just 1 question reading this atm... why did u divide villains range's by 12 in the 4 ranges value/bluff thingie? why 12?
Because I made the assumption villain had a 12% resteal. So I took the (value range)/(entire range) to get an idea of how value heavy different ranges were
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:55 PM   #122
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

cool ty
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #123
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

Anti-Archive bump.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:42 AM   #124
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

bump to prevent COTW from being archived
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:14 AM   #125
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Re: COTW: Understanding Polarization

Thanks for this!
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