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Old 10-01-2010, 11:35 PM   #51
.Four5'sBeatA_Boat
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by apathy6907 View Post
this just made my life so much easier. you're a beast, split.
+1 beastmode

I reread the article several times to soak it all in..

Thank you for the article Split, it is very well written and I learned a lot.
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:42 PM   #52
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Digger, the problem with the 3bet stat is that it doesn't take into account the position of the initial raiser. Especially at 10nl, people are 3betting an EP far less frequently than a LP raise. I'd guess that his range is no better than the top 3% of hands available

There are 6 combos of AA, 1 combo of KK, 2 combos of AKs, 2 combos of AKo, 6 combos of QQ and 6 combos of JJ pf. On the flop, Hero drops to a 62/38 dog. Hero can call the flop bet.

The river is interesting. If he can bluff his entire range, then it is a call. However at 10nl, this is almost always a FH and an easy fold.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:26 AM   #53
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Digger, the problem with the 3bet stat is that it doesn't take into account the position of the initial raiser. Especially at 10nl, people are 3betting an EP far less frequently than a LP raise. I'd guess that his range is no better than the top 3% of hands available

There are 6 combos of AA, 1 combo of KK, 2 combos of AKs, 2 combos of AKo, 6 combos of QQ and 6 combos of JJ pf. On the flop, Hero drops to a 62/38 dog. Hero can call the flop bet.

The river is interesting. If he can bluff his entire range, then it is a call. However at 10nl, this is almost always a FH and an easy fold.
I agree with this.
Although one of the underlying assumptions is that everyone does adjust their 3betting range to our opening position. Some players will just 3bet - their 3bet range no matter where the open is coming from.
But I agree that we should tend to give more strength given our positional protection.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:52 AM   #54
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by DiggertheDog View Post
I agree with this.
Although one of the underlying assumptions is that everyone does adjust their 3betting range to our opening position. Some players will just 3bet - their 3bet range no matter where the open is coming from.
But I agree that we should tend to give more strength given our positional protection.
If a villain has a 3bet% of less than 3, then they probably aren't positionally aware. At 7%, they've probably learned that people fold steal attempts to 3 bets, thus their 3bets are concentrated in LP and the blinds.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:57 AM   #55
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Digger, your hand example is a great exercise - I hope to find about 100 more somewhere to keep working on combos (book, video, etc. Anyone?).

You mentioned that you searched through your database to find this example. My next question is this- did you pick this hand specifically because the range is tight and the combo exercise is therefore easier? If so, does that imply that these tight range 3bet hands are the only time you use combos to make decisions, or do you use them all the time?

Here is a (slightly modified) hand I pulled from my session last night. I'm wondering if the forum would share their thought process with me on how you decide to play this hand, specifically if combos are involved in your live decision.

Note: if you do NOT use combos in hands like these, then let's just establish that and then not discuss the hand further - I don't want to derail the thread talking about how to beat a 57/28 - the combo stuff is too important/interesting.

Feral Cow Hand Converter.
HEM/Full Tilt NL Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 9 players

UTG: $2.75
UTG+1: $10.53
MP: $15.26
MP2: $7.08
HJ: $10.00
CO: $10.00 (Hero)
Button: $3.25
SB: $10.00
BB: $18.85

MP is a 57/28 after 113 hands. His raise size seems to indicate his hand strength - I have seen a 3x show down to AK, and an 8x show down to Q8s. Raise size has gone as high as 12x.

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with (9 players)
2 folds, MP raises to $0.70, 2 folds, Hero ???
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:58 AM   #56
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
If a villain has a 3bet% of less than 3, then they probably aren't positionally aware. At 7%, they've probably learned that people fold steal attempts to 3 bets, thus their 3bets are concentrated in LP and the blinds.
The point is not to argue about the range I assigned villian but to get people thinking about combos and EV.

Try and look at it simply and tell me a thumbnail about......

How often he is full?
How often we are splitting?
What our EV is?

And do it in a fashion that can be applied in game.

(FWIW he had 3bet me UTG UTG +1 with JJ just for you Venice)
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:02 AM   #57
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Split - Not looking to cause trouble, but why did you play the 77 hand the way you did? Raising flop seems much better as it looks nowhere near as strong as a turn raise and surely his continuation range is way tighter facing a flop call/turn raise vs a flop raise/turn barrel?
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:47 AM   #58
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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(FWIW he had 3bet me UTG UTG +1 with JJ just for you Venice)
I believe I had that in his range.

I'll stop derailing this discussion.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:36 PM   #59
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Split - Not looking to cause trouble, but why did you play the 77 hand the way you did? Raising flop seems much better as it looks nowhere near as strong as a turn raise and surely his continuation range is way tighter facing a flop call/turn raise vs a flop raise/turn barrel?
my line there depends on the player type.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:08 PM   #60
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Old 10-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #61
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
my line there depends on the player type.
What kind of reg's value calling/stacking off range is wider vs a baluga raise vs a flop raise? [Assuming his a reg]
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:46 PM   #62
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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What kind of reg's value calling/stacking off range is wider vs a baluga raise vs a flop raise? [Assuming his a reg]
those that have odd perceptions of commitment and those that think I bluff too much in this way...
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:56 PM   #63
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Thanx split amazing article!
also it helped me this last explanation, it was a bit hard for me to see analogy between odds and combos
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:59 PM   #64
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Thanx split amazing article!
also it helped me this last explanation, it was a bit hard for me to see analogy between odds and combos
glad i could help =)
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:42 PM   #65
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Just want to add my thanks &bookmark. Won't be studying this for a while though, as I believe learning things in order of importance is best and combos should be at the high end of the ABC poker pyramid, right?
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:13 PM   #66
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Just want to add my thanks &bookmark. Won't be studying this for a while though, as I believe learning things in order of importance is best and combos should be at the high end of the ABC poker pyramid, right?
combos are important...but building a solid range and understanding showdown value and such are higher priorities imo
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:18 PM   #67
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Excellent post Split. I do have a question (for anyone) on how to apply to drawing hands / further streets. Here are a couple of hands I recently played.

Hand #1 - 200PL.
Donkish villain. 125BB effective stacks.

Hero raises to $7 in hijack with 99, called by button and villain in BB.

Flop is 789. Villain checks, Hero bets $20, villain raises to $51, Hero raises to $113, villain raises ai, Hero ?

Hero is getting 3-1 to call. I put him on JT, 88, or 77. With 16 combos of JT, I would need 6+ hands I currently beat, and I have 6 (88&77). However, if he has JT I have outs to fill up, and if he has 77 or 88 he's basically dead, making this an easy call. Stoving I had 50% equity.

So this was an obvious call.


Hand #2 - 100PL.
Donk villain, passive post-flop. 71BB effective stacks.

Donk raises to $3.50 in ep, I call with 99 in mp, bb calls.

Flop 986. Villain checks, I bet $10, villain calls.
Turn 2. Villain checks, I bet $25, Villain raises ai to $58, Hero ?

Hero is getting 3.5-1 to call. I put him on T7, 75, 88, 66. He has 32 combos of straights, and 6 of 88/66, which is around 5-1. So based on combos alone on this street I should fold. But I do have 35% equity.

Doing some math
Ev(fold) = 0.
Ev(call) = 114(.35) - 33(.65) = $18.55.

So even though counting combos say I should fold, with further streets it is +EV to call.

Any hints/suggestions for taking draws&further streets into consideration?
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:09 PM   #68
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Of course with streets to come you have to consider your equity against the various hands, the pot odds, and the combos. In the second example your equity against straights is 10/44, and against undersets it's 43/44. So your total equity would be
(32*10/44 + 6*43/44)/(32+6) = (320+258)/(44*38)=34.58%, just as PokerStove tells you.

You can simplify these equations a bit. 10/44 is roughly 20%; 43/44 is roughly 100%. Dividing the difference in the ratio 6:32 or roughly 1:5 you get 20+80/6=33%.

Simply counting combinations and comparing them to pot odds works only on the river.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:48 AM   #69
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

This might be obvious,

but how would you factor in the chance of your opponent hitting his/her remaining outs into the equity calculation, given the assigned range & combos

thanks

JUST REALISED I COMPLETELY MISSED THE TWO PREVIOUS POSTS< EXPLAINING JUSt THAT :P

Last edited by 888star1; 10-07-2010 at 12:49 AM. Reason: IGNORANCE
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:00 PM   #70
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Originally Posted by Cangurino View Post
Of course with streets to come you have to consider your equity against the various hands, the pot odds, and the combos.

Simply counting combinations and comparing them to pot odds works only on the river.
Thanks Cangurino, so I guess on the river or in WA/WB situations you can just compare pot odds to combos.

Otherwise, using combos just helps you get your equity, then you need to do the pot odds / equity calculation above to get real EV. Will need to practice this way from table....
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:52 AM   #71
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

(remedial level) combo report:

I got to employ hand combo information to gain some extra river value at a live game last night.

I'll set it up briefly - a weak/passive limped, I play punish the limper in position with As6h. Flop is 6s6c4s. Sweeeet. he check/calls my bet. Turn is 7s. I bet (trips + NFD? Yes, please!), he check/calls again. River comes the Js giving me runner-runner nut flush, and passive villain fires out 12 big blinds (about half pot, but a big bet for this player in absolute terms).

I'm not folding the nut flush, but I have to give some consideration to the fact that he has a full house on the paired board, so I have to decide whether to just call or raise to get value from smaller flushes.

I can't do the actual math at the table (yet), but it's not too hard to see that there are simply way more ways to hold a single spade than there are to hold the pocket pair or the 6x that beat me, especially with me having a six. I can also rule out pocket jacks because him limp/called preflop (I think this player raises JJ preflop).

So I raise to $25 (a number I think he'll call with his smaller flushes), and he calls, showing Ks8s. Combos FTW! (not the most difficult of combo exercises, but they prevent the weak-tight me from calling with a strong a hand, and getting extra river value).

My post game Flopzilla analysis below. An 8:1 ratio of flushes to full houses (30.1 vs. 3.59).



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Old 10-09-2010, 04:22 AM   #72
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Great anekdote on using this concept in live play mtagliaf, and congrats on a well played hand.
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:09 AM   #73
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
(remedial level) combo report:

I got to employ hand combo information to gain some extra river value at a live game last night.

I'll set it up briefly - a weak/passive limped, I play punish the limper in position with As6h. Flop is 6s6c4s. Sweeeet. he check/calls my bet. Turn is 7s. I bet (trips + NFD? Yes, please!), he check/calls again. River comes the Js giving me runner-runner nut flush, and passive villain fires out 12 big blinds (about half pot, but a big bet for this player in absolute terms).

I'm not folding the nut flush, but I have to give some consideration to the fact that he has a full house on the paired board, so I have to decide whether to just call or raise to get value from smaller flushes.

I can't do the actual math at the table (yet), but it's not too hard to see that there are simply way more ways to hold a single spade than there are to hold the pocket pair or the 6x that beat me, especially with me having a six. I can also rule out pocket jacks because him limp/called preflop (I think this player raises JJ preflop).

So I raise to $25 (a number I think he'll call with his smaller flushes), and he calls, showing Ks8s. Combos FTW! (not the most difficult of combo exercises, but they prevent the weak-tight me from calling with a strong a hand, and getting extra river value).

My post game Flopzilla analysis below. An 8:1 ratio of flushes to full houses (30.1 vs. 3.59).



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Nice example
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Old 10-11-2010, 09:31 PM   #74
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

Purchased flopzilla and plan to review this whole thread with it.

Thanks split for taking the time to put this together.
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Old 10-11-2010, 09:39 PM   #75
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Re: COTW: Thinking About Combos

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Purchased flopzilla and plan to review this whole thread with it.

Thanks split for taking the time to put this together.
np. hopefully it helps =)
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