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Old 08-16-2011, 03:57 AM   #126
ALEA JACTA EST
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

I watched the video yesterday and kept thinking about "having a default line and then adjusting should we have reads later on".

I recently opened a thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...range-1082921/

where I provide a default (readless) opening range and got flamed a bit. I was thinking if you could take a look and say if it is a good default line and if it has any hands that, as you say in the video, would be better of folding instead of opening.

for example it's always wrong to open 72o from UTG. I'm wondering if i'm doing mistakes like that. Thank you, and btw, nice video!

Last edited by ALEA JACTA EST; 08-16-2011 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:03 AM   #127
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

just watched the video split..

some things i want to ask as i do have default lines & write alot of static play vs varying opponents & board texture down in m.word & keep editing in things i feel i have learned.. anyways

- the ak hand vs a 13/10.... why do you choose to bet the flop, i mean you started the video by talking about board texture but then when you analyzed the ak hand you didn't speak to your bet sizing due to board texture or which hands are good to bet considering it is a very wet board there & double barreling etc will be hard to make villain fold(ime)

- also what flops do you consider wet & does it matter if your opponent changes & then how does that impact your decision whether you can cbet & potentially double barrel profitably



as a default i c/f all wet flops vs everybody pretty much & cbet dry boards, i sitll to this day cannot find any info on what constitutes a dry/wet flop in too much detail & feel somebody somewhere needs to explain it & hoping you could
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:57 AM   #128
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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as a default i c/f all wet flops vs everybody pretty much & cbet dry boards, i sitll to this day cannot find any info on what constitutes a dry/wet flop in too much detail & feel somebody somewhere needs to explain it & hoping you could
Just think about how different ranges hit different boards. Against some players, in different spots - ie btb vs blind, or ep vs lp, cbetting a AKx rainbow board is going to be really bad because their preflop calling range may contain a ton of Ax and Kx in that particular situation, while against another player/situation they may be less likely to contain Ax and Kx because they are 3betting most playable Ax/Kx hands and their calling range is mostly pp's and sc's.

Against loose players, you can make a lot of thinner valuebets on drawy boards with tpwk as well as middle pair because they call with all draws and pair + gs combos to see the river. It's a pretty common leak for microstakes regs to miss value on brick turns with their middle pair since that is where their equity vs villains calling range is going to be highest, not on the flop, but so often you see them bet the flop, get scared and go for cheap showdown.
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:51 PM   #129
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Originally Posted by ALEA JACTA EST View Post
I watched the video yesterday and kept thinking about "having a default line and then adjusting should we have reads later on".

...

for example it's always wrong to open 72o from UTG. I'm wondering if i'm doing mistakes like that. Thank you, and btw, nice video!
Thank you. As for your thread...why are you even thinking about deceptive opens if you are playing without info? If you don't have info on them...assume they don't have info on you and thus don't worry about deception imo. Also, be more dynamic especially from MP/LP.

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just watched the video split..

some things i want to ask as i do have default lines & write alot of static play vs varying opponents & board texture down in m.word & keep editing in things i feel i have learned.. anyways

- the ak hand vs a 13/10.... why do you choose to bet the flop, i mean you started the video by talking about board texture but then when you analyzed the ak hand you didn't speak to your bet sizing due to board texture or which hands are good to bet considering it is a very wet board there & double barreling etc will be hard to make villain fold(ime)

- also what flops do you consider wet & does it matter if your opponent changes & then how does that impact your decision whether you can cbet & potentially double barrel profitably



as a default i c/f all wet flops vs everybody pretty much & cbet dry boards, i sitll to this day cannot find any info on what constitutes a dry/wet flop in too much detail & feel somebody somewhere needs to explain it & hoping you could
- What was the AK hand? I haven't watched this video in ever and don't remember the spot

- I consider a wet flop one that is coordinated and relatively drawy. And a dry flop is everything else.

I don't have default lines on wet flops because not every wet flop is created equal. For instance AhQsJh is a wet board that I would bluff CB against a setminer...it's all relative.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:33 PM   #130
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

The AK hand is one where you open fold AK UTG because you have a bunch of aggressive 3betters after you.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:29 PM   #131
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

^^^ nah it was a j-9-blank two toned board & he fired a cbet into a 13/10
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:32 PM   #132
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

oh, ok. I didn't read carefully. Everyone talks about the open fold AK, so I assumed you meant that too.
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Old 08-17-2011, 03:25 AM   #133
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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^^^ nah it was a j-9-blank two toned board & he fired a cbet into a 13/10
If i thought he would fold a lot on that board then I would CB it. Not much more to it than that
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:45 AM   #134
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Understanding the concepts of this video is what it takes to go winning from breakeven imo, along with being overrolled. I just wish i saw this video earlier instead of having to spend 2 years on figuring out by myself this exact thought process, anyways you rock Split thank you for doing what you do
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:36 AM   #135
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Understanding the concepts of this video is what it takes to go winning from breakeven imo, along with being overrolled. I just wish i saw this video earlier instead of having to spend 2 years on figuring out by myself this exact thought process, anyways you rock Split thank you for doing what you do
No problem...glad I could help =)

I also did a free vid over on TPB on preflop planning if anyone is interested...
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:45 PM   #136
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Play 6max so the whole open folding AKo and btn not 3betting QQ I just ignored but this video is really really good! Such a good and straightforward way of thinking through actions and further streets. Cheers brah!
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:47 PM   #137
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Play 6max so the whole open folding AKo and btn not 3betting QQ I just ignored but this video is really really good! Such a good and straightforward way of thinking through actions and further streets. Cheers brah!
Def ignore that stuff for 6max =) Cheers!
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:14 PM   #138
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Stream the video here:

DL the video here:

This video focuses on planning, and how we can use that planning to create default lines, while considering other lines at the same time. I talked about compartmentalizing information, and planning from both a PF and postflop POV. I wrapped up the video with a full hand example (AK). The video is 35minutes, and took a long ass time to make, so hopefully you enjoy it =)

Let's start a discussion...
amazing video
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:45 AM   #139
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Thumbs up Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Split continues to produce some of the best videos available. Not only is the content thought provoking, but the production values are usually superior to the standard fare on DC or CR. You can tell he puts a lot of work into them.

Check out his entire catalog when you have the chance.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:47 AM   #140
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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amazing video
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Originally Posted by tommycee2 View Post
Split continues to produce some of the best videos available. Not only is the content thought provoking, but the production values are usually superior to the standard fare on DC or CR. You can tell he puts a lot of work into them.

Check out his entire catalog when you have the chance.
thanks guys =)
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Old 10-17-2011, 04:08 PM   #141
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Soo... Split,

Thank you a lot for this video.

I was realizing just the other day that good poker players probably have poker much more simplified in their minds than me. I didn't know what I could do about this other than trying to gain more playing experience + posting more hands.

This is very much what I needed to see.

Thank you for teaching
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Old 10-17-2011, 04:58 PM   #142
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Soo... Split,

Thank you a lot for this video.

I was realizing just the other day that good poker players probably have poker much more simplified in their minds than me. I didn't know what I could do about this other than trying to gain more playing experience + posting more hands.

This is very much what I needed to see.

Thank you for teaching
No problem. Glad I could help get you started =)
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:56 PM   #143
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Thanx split!!!!!!!! Just asked my coach to do a session on planning and bet sizing so I can grasp it even better. Excellent video. Shows me where some of my leaks are. TY! TY!
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:29 PM   #144
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Thanx split!!!!!!!! Just asked my coach to do a session on planning and bet sizing so I can grasp it even better. Excellent video. Shows me where some of my leaks are. TY! TY!
You are more than welcome =)

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Old 10-20-2011, 04:23 AM   #145
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Just watched it for the first time, it's going to take a few more viewings to digest all the info.

Thanks James, I am constantly amazed at the stuff you do for us, for free! I often dip into your blog and you are doing stuff ALL THE TIME, so it's awesome you find (some of your valuable) time, to give us micro grinders advice, that we may not be able to pay coaches for (yet).

Grazie Mille
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:25 AM   #146
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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Just watched it for the first time, it's going to take a few more viewings to digest all the info.

Thanks James, I am constantly amazed at the stuff you do for us, for free! I often dip into your blog and you are doing stuff ALL THE TIME, so it's awesome you find (some of your valuable) time, to give us micro grinders advice, that we may not be able to pay coaches for (yet).

Grazie Mille
Enjoy the extra viewings, and you are more than welcome for the free stuff. Good luck implementing everything!
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:27 PM   #147
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Hey, Split. I hope you manage to see this post and respond to it.

First of all, great video. This is the kind of stuff that I feel like once I start working on seriously, would definitely take my game to the next level. Well, that's what I am doing now, so I have a question.

When talking about having AK from UTG, you were saying how it's probably not a bad idea to open-fold if we don't think we are going to put ourselves in profitable pre-flop or post-flop spots. Other people have already asked about the situation in which there are aggro 3bettors, so I am not going to repeat their questions. What I want to ask concerns those spots in which there is a bunch of loose fish acting after us and there is a good chance we'll be playing a MW pot OOP. I want to divide what I am struggling with the following way:

1. Why is this situation bad for us? Don't the times when we flop TPTK and take 2-3 streets of value from draws/second pairs/worse top pairs compensate for the times when we miss and c/f or b/f TPTK because (for example) a passive fish raises us? Not to mention the times we flop better than TPTK (which, granted, are rare).

2. In this same spot, what kind of range would you actually open? Because if we open a hand like JJ-QQ, quite often there will be an overcard OTF and I imagine it might be more difficult to play that MW OOP, than AK. In other words, apart from the obvious KK+ that we're opening from every position, regardless of who's acting after us, what other hands might we fold UTG if there are many loose fish left to act and there is a chance we'll find ourselves in an undesirable spot post-flop? If we are actually opening JJ-QQ, what is our plan for when we get 2-3 callers for different types of flops?

3. Let me ask about a similar situation. Let's say we're in the SB and three loose fish limp in, everybody else folds and BB is a 13/10 nit. We know that the first limper almost never folds preflop for a single raise, so isolating OOP is most likely going to induce a chain of calls. What kind of range would you suggest for doing so and is this situation too different from when we were UTG? If so, could you please briefly mention the important differences and how they change our post-flop plan?

Thanks a lot for your time for making these great videos and discussing them with us!
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:42 PM   #148
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Bump?
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:40 PM   #149
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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...What I want to ask concerns those spots in which there is a bunch of loose fish acting after us and there is a good chance we'll be playing a MW pot OOP. I want to divide what I am struggling with the following way:

1. Why is this situation bad for us? Don't the times when we flop TPTK and take 2-3 streets of value from draws/second pairs/worse top pairs compensate for the times when we miss and c/f or b/f TPTK because (for example) a passive fish raises us? Not to mention the times we flop better than TPTK (which, granted, are rare).

2. In this same spot, what kind of range would you actually open? Because if we open a hand like JJ-QQ, quite often there will be an overcard OTF and I imagine it might be more difficult to play that MW OOP, than AK. In other words, apart from the obvious KK+ that we're opening from every position, regardless of who's acting after us, what other hands might we fold UTG if there are many loose fish left to act and there is a chance we'll find ourselves in an undesirable spot post-flop? If we are actually opening JJ-QQ, what is our plan for when we get 2-3 callers for different types of flops?

3. Let me ask about a similar situation. Let's say we're in the SB and three loose fish limp in, everybody else folds and BB is a 13/10 nit. We know that the first limper almost never folds preflop for a single raise, so isolating OOP is most likely going to induce a chain of calls. What kind of range would you suggest for doing so and is this situation too different from when we were UTG? If so, could you please briefly mention the important differences and how they change our post-flop plan?

Thanks a lot for your time for making these great videos and discussing them with us!
Glad you enjoyed the movie. I'm just getting back from xmas vacation...thus the delay in response:

1.) It's not bad...but it might not be a good situation if your postflop game leaves a lot to be desired (such as MW CB skills, VB skills, ability to hand/texture/action read, etc.).

2.) I almost always open AK (there are select table situations where I might fold or limp instead). I would also ask myself if I could open limp at this table, which could change my opening thoughts with hands like 22-77...

3.) I won't give my exact raising range here...but I would consider reading the COTW on ISOing if you need help. I would be ISOing strongly though, simply because I expect to go 3-4 way most always if I ISO to a normal size and being OOP, I want something that will do well postflop in such a bloated spot

Hopefully that helps =)
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:32 AM   #150
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Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

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2.) I almost always open AK (there are select table situations where I might fold or limp instead). I would also ask myself if I could open limp at this table, which could change my opening thoughts with hands like 22-77...
Thanks for the response!

This bit is interesting. I've seen this discussed in one of the last COTW I read as well. Normally open-limping is pretty stigmatized nowadays. I have never heard of good arguments for this. Is there a 2+2 thread or some other article that you can link to?

Other than that, why is open-limping a hand like 66 better than open-raising? Let's say there is a good chance we'll find ourselves MW. But if we hit our set, we can hope to win a very big pot because it's so much easier to get the stacks in if the initial pot OTF is, say, 13bbs, than if it is 5-6bbs. Doesn't that make us more money in the long run?

Quote:
3.) I won't give my exact raising range here...but I would consider reading the COTW on ISOing if you need help. I would be ISOing strongly though, simply because I expect to go 3-4 way most always if I ISO to a normal size and being OOP, I want something that will do well postflop in such a bloated spot
What would strongly mean? Is it something like 6x+1 for each limper? This sounds good actually, and now my question is, can we apply the same strategy for when we're open-raising UTG with a bunch of loose fish behind us?
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