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COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

08-02-2010 , 01:58 PM
Just grabbed it now, and skipped through it. Looks great (and a lot of work) really appreciate the effort.
COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation Quote
08-02-2010 , 02:50 PM
Great Video. Love how you talk about doing the work off line to set up standard lines and then adjust those lines with any additional information.
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08-02-2010 , 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Douglas
Just grabbed it now, and skipped through it. Looks great (and a lot of work) really appreciate the effort.
thank you

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Originally Posted by stranglylucid
Great Video. Love how you talk about doing the work off line to set up standard lines and then adjust those lines with any additional information.
thank you. sounds like you got the bulk of my message =)
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08-02-2010 , 03:00 PM
Great video, Split. Sounds like youre reading from a script, though

I esp enjoyed the part where you talked about coming up with lines off line, I do that myself. Seems like I am spending more time off line analyzing players and taking notes than actually being at a poker table. But hey, I guess its all good.
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08-02-2010 , 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by KrazyIgnatz
Great video, Split. Sounds like youre reading from a script, though

I esp enjoyed the part where you talked about coming up with lines off line, I do that myself. Seems like I am spending more time off line analyzing players and taking notes than actually being at a poker table. But hey, I guess its all good.
yea, you can tell the parts when i am reading off a script, and then I was not, lol. i think doing the studying like you are is good. it makes sure that your time on the tables is better spent
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08-02-2010 , 04:02 PM
Since mpethy's COTW is "The last redline thread ever," this should be subtitled, "The last 'villain has done X, what do I do now' thread ever." It gets Venice's "suitable for all skill levels" rating. Well done.

As for the hand in question, I see this reaction from players all the time. Not unusual at all.
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08-02-2010 , 04:26 PM
wait...you mean I dont need to put a warning label on this one!??! I think you've said that every COTW ive done this year needs one...this marks a turning point in my COTW history!
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08-02-2010 , 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by *Split*
wait...you mean I dont need to put a warning label on this one!??! I think you've said that every COTW ive done this year needs one...this marks a turning point in my COTW history!
LOL.

Actually nobody has a done a dangerous COTW in quite a while. It has impacted my win rate.
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08-02-2010 , 05:00 PM
About the AK hand....

I agree that you should think about what situations your actions will lead to, and whether you like those situations or not. However I don't really like your solution.

Suppose our standard line with AK in early position is 3x-fold, which is pretty reasonable. You give two table textures where this line is -EV: One has three very aggressive players in late position so we can expect to be 3-bet 30% of the time, the other has a bunch of stations in LP and in the blinds. You conclude:

Quote:
Always think about what's good. A limp preflop wasn't good, a raise is probably gonna do exactly this and it's gonna happen a ton, and again, folding is neutral EV, it's safe, it's gonna keep you out of trouble, and nobody said that folding AK preflop is gonna be a crime.
I agree that in both cases folding looks better than our standard line, but it's not like these are the only two options we have. As you say in the video, figure out what situations our actions lead to, and if we like these situations. If we turn it around we may say: What situation do we want, and how do we get there? If we look at it this way we may get a bit more creative.

Situations we would like to attain with AKo would be: HU IP, HU OOP with initiative, all-in pre against a wide range. Situations we would like to avoid are: folding to a 3-bet, 3-bet pot OOP without initiative, multiway pot OOP.

When we're up against the maniacs our hand does well against their ranges. In fact, if 3 people 3-bet a combined 30% of the time, each of them has to 3-bet roughly 11%. Against that range we have a solid edge and so we might consider 4-betting for value (and getting it in on the flop). This is volatile but it's possibly better than folding.

When we're up against the stations then a 3x raise will leave us OOP in a multiway pot, which we do not want. However AK is a strong hand against each caller individually. So if a 3x raise gets 4 callers, what about a 5x raise? Will they still all call? How about an 8x raise? Most villains have somewhat elastic calling ranges, so they will call less against bigger raises. (If they don't we just open-shove.) There will be a raise size where we can expect one caller; if we can find that size we will get a situation that we like. In addition, the shorter SPR helps our hand, and we don't have to worry about narrowing our opponents' ranges too much since they start out very wide.

In summary: Think about what situations you like, and think about which lines will get you into those situations. Folding AK just because our standard line doesn't work smells like burning money to me.
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08-02-2010 , 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cangurino
In summary: Think about what situations you like, and think about which lines will get you into those situations. Folding AK just because our standard line doesn't work smells like possibly burning small amounts of EV to me.
imo. sure, you can raise to 5x. but that can turn your hand super face up. sure, you can open with intentions of 4betting. but that can put you on the worst side of the minimax game against good players. sure you can fold. but you might miss out on a very small edge.
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08-02-2010 , 05:08 PM
I guess my main point was the argument "limping is bad, raising is bad, so we fold" is simplistic and goes against what was said in the rest of the video.
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08-02-2010 , 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by *Split*
imo. sure, you can raise to 5x. but that can turn your hand super face up.
If we tighten our range (due to the reduced SPR) and raise our whole range to 5x I don't see how this is super face up.
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08-02-2010 , 05:57 PM
posting for appreciation. thank you. i'll study the vid many more times i think.
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08-02-2010 , 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cangurino
If we tighten our range (due to the reduced SPR) and raise our whole range to 5x I don't see how this is super face up.
if youre going to do it with your entire range, then yea, no problem. i thought you were talking about just raising that one specific hand like that
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08-02-2010 , 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cangurino
I guess my main point was the argument "limping is bad, raising is bad, so we fold" is simplistic and goes against what was said in the rest of the video.
its does and doesnt. but you need to be able to even think simple before you can get into creative line composition like you did
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08-02-2010 , 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by venice10
LOL.

Actually nobody has a done a dangerous COTW in quite a while. It has impacted my win rate.
lol

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Originally Posted by Siti_11
posting for appreciation. thank you. i'll study the vid many more times i think.
np. hopefully its more enjoyable the second time around =)
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08-02-2010 , 06:35 PM
Split,

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Helpful and well thought out
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08-02-2010 , 08:21 PM
dam excellent video split, you're def the best at explaining and simplifying things. thank you
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08-02-2010 , 08:25 PM
Watched the video yesterday and I never really talked out loud about planning while playing but I guess sometimes I do subconsciously. Now that I've watched it, I talk out loud while playing what my plan is going to be and have had great success especially stacking off some aggro by planning. I'll probably watch this video a few times to fully grasp the concept but again thank you for taking the time to make this video. It has definitely helped me.
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08-02-2010 , 08:34 PM
Well done, Split. Quality really shows through. Thanks for continually giving back.
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08-02-2010 , 10:04 PM
Where were you 200k hands ago? Well put together and I enjoyed the presentation of the material since I am more auditory oriented. A+

And wow! Fold AK in any position. I figured it was just blasphemy to state in public under any situation. Thank you for all you hard work on this!
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08-02-2010 , 10:15 PM
Spot on. Poker really isnt that complicated unless you make it so, at least at the micros!
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08-02-2010 , 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SaberTJ
Split,

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Helpful and well thought out
thank you. much appreciated

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Originally Posted by al15
dam excellent video split, you're def the best at explaining and simplifying things. thank you
glad i was able to simplify it all for ya =)

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Originally Posted by alphakenny1
Watched the video yesterday and I never really talked out loud about planning while playing but I guess sometimes I do subconsciously. Now that I've watched it, I talk out loud while playing what my plan is going to be and have had great success especially stacking off some aggro by planning. I'll probably watch this video a few times to fully grasp the concept but again thank you for taking the time to make this video. It has definitely helped me.
yea...i talk to my self every session, just like when i record a video. forces your brain to think about things twice, rather than just once

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Originally Posted by JL514
Well done, Split. Quality really shows through. Thanks for continually giving back.
thanks bud

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Originally Posted by phebous
Where were you 200k hands ago? Well put together and I enjoyed the presentation of the material since I am more auditory oriented. A+

And wow! Fold AK in any position. I figured it was just blasphemy to state in public under any situation. Thank you for all you hard work on this!
woah woah woah!!! I only fold AK with very specific parameters =) Def not my standard play by any stretch. but glad you enjoyed and was able to sink well with your learning style

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDHand
Spot on. Poker really isnt that complicated unless you make it so, at least at the micros!
so damn true. but its simple at the micros as well =)
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08-03-2010 , 12:36 AM
great video split.

although you're a huge nit if you open fold AK, you're not going to be able to justify it to me, no way.
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08-03-2010 , 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by thejuggernaut
great video split.

although you're a huge nit if you open fold AK, you're not going to be able to justify it to me, no way.
i like when people call me a nit. its makes me feel...like batman =)
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