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Old 11-18-2010, 11:11 AM   #51
Foxhound32
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Nice article Split!
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Old 11-18-2010, 12:18 PM   #52
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

*gruch*

do you ever consider the reverse, the information that you are giving away? for example, in hand 1 opponent can safely fold to your river bet with anything that isn't at least QQ. the turn is simply too good of a barrel card and we can merge hands like QQ/JJ against his calling range because most regs (or at least me and i think a lot of others) are barreling that turn and then shoving the river a good % of the time. by checking the turn, i would argue that you give away WAY more information about the way you play, especially if you show up with JJ/QQ.
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Old 11-18-2010, 02:45 PM   #53
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Banguard View Post
*gruch*

do you ever consider the reverse, the information that you are giving away? for example, in hand 1 opponent can safely fold to your river bet with anything that isn't at least QQ. the turn is simply too good of a barrel card and we can merge hands like QQ/JJ against his calling range because most regs (or at least me and i think a lot of others) are barreling that turn and then shoving the river a good % of the time. by checking the turn, i would argue that you give away WAY more information about the way you play, especially if you show up with JJ/QQ.
of course...but again, its only applicable when your opponent can think and cares enough. there are plenty of thinking players that just don't care to use that type of information...
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:16 PM   #54
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by dsikesii View Post
Another solid COTW from Split. Can't wait for the book.
You can't has it. I has exclusive rights. You're all ******! Bwahaha. I'm going to get some pizza...
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:13 PM   #55
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

All I see is a whole bunch of betting for information.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:47 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
ok, here's a sample hand where I've hidden my cards and the results. Let's take notes on villain's play. My normal note would be "donk" - looking for better notes from those better at this than I am.

Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 8 players

UTG: $3.35
UTG+1: $10.00
MP: $11.09
HJ: $19.37
CO: $11.42 (Hero)
Button: $5.26
SB: $24.78
BB: $4.40

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with :X :X (8 players)
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, Button folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.70) (2 players)
SB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($6.20) (2 players)
SB bets $1.73, Hero calls $1.73

Hero showed :X :X
SB showed , two pair, Aces and Tens
calls 3x raise with A4s in the blinds. will donk 3bb on flop - call raise 10bb w/TPNK. donks turn 2/3 pot. leads same on river.
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:22 AM   #57
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

just wanted to add. that almost as important as taking notes on the way others play there hands

is to take notes on the way villians see you play a hand.

"has seen me 4 bet 33 from mp"

stuff like that.

nice poast split.
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:14 AM   #58
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by zocketpocket View Post
just wanted to add. that almost as important as taking notes on the way others play there hands

is to take notes on the way villians see you play a hand.

"has seen me 4 bet 33 from mp"

stuff like that.

nice poast split.
+1 thats definitely something I have to do more
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Old 11-21-2010, 10:07 PM   #59
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by zocketpocket View Post
just wanted to add. that almost as important as taking notes on the way others play there hands

is to take notes on the way villians see you play a hand.

"has seen me 4 bet 33 from mp"

stuff like that.

nice poast split.
agreed. and glad you liked it =)
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:08 AM   #60
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

My favorite note is:

"THINKS I SPEW"

Which means I did spew, but think so highly of myself that I'm not going to do it again vs. that person (LOL like that's going to happen), so I hope that my buy-in lost will in some way shape or form come back to help me via image, even if it's picking up/saving something like ~10BB extra in small/medium pots.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:44 PM   #61
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by illini43 View Post
My favorite note is:

"THINKS I SPEW"

Which means I did spew, but think so highly of myself that I'm not going to do it again vs. that person (LOL like that's going to happen), so I hope that my buy-in lost will in some way shape or form come back to help me via image, even if it's picking up/saving something like ~10BB extra in small/medium pots.
ahahaha i used this note twice yesterday. Best part was bluffing off my stack to villain in the same exact spot as he had previously seen me spew.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:00 AM   #62
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

If I used the 'seen me spew' note i'd put it on every reg at 50nl
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Old 11-25-2010, 09:53 AM   #63
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by zocketpocket View Post
just wanted to add. that almost as important as taking notes on the way others play there hands

is to take notes on the way villians see you play a hand.

"has seen me 4 bet 33 from mp"

stuff like that.

nice poast split.
for sure , trouble is there are up to 7 other regs at the table who have also seen you spew allin pre with JTs or whatever, and noting it down for them all individually takes tooo long: there needs to be a button on PT that lets you add the same note to all players at the table at the same time.....
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:18 AM   #64
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

I've been reading this board for awhile. After recently registering, I decided I would keep up on the COTW every time it posts and try to contribute to the discussion. I've skimmed through a few old ones but this is the first 'new' COTW, so I read over it carefully. Great stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by village kid View Post
for sure , trouble is there are up to 7 other regs at the table who have also seen you spew allin pre with JTs or whatever, and noting it down for them all individually takes tooo long: there needs to be a button on PT that lets you add the same note to all players at the table at the same time.....
People generally aren't paying attention to hands they're not involved in. They're multi-tabling, browsing the web, or just aren't thinking that deeply about the game they're in.

Of those hands, pushes that show down are most likely to get noticed, but I don't think we have to make notes in this situation, unless we pushed due to a read on a specific opponent and it backfired. He might have just outleveled you, or your read might have been wrong in the first place. We need to note here to adjust our perception of the opponent. As far as the rest of the table, they're either thinking opponents that are aware of what just occurred and why, or they think that you're a donk and will open up their calling ranges against you (if they change at all). The former recognize that the spew was read-dependent and won't affect future hands against them, other than the fact that you can be set up by an evolving style of play, which, if you're good and they're good, was already a given, and the latter are thinking so simply that your only recourse is to simply play good poker.

I can't think of any case where we make a play and make a note for the whole table. Rather we're looking at how specific opponents perceive us after playing in hands against them.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:15 AM   #65
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoyestizo View Post

People generally aren't paying attention to hands they're not involved in. They're multi-tabling, browsing the web, or just aren't thinking that deeply about the game they're in.
Welcome to the board. I would think most regs would look at a hand that has gone all-in.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:24 PM   #66
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoyestizo View Post
I've been reading this board for awhile. After recently registering, I decided I would keep up on the COTW every time it posts and try to contribute to the discussion. I've skimmed through a few old ones but this is the first 'new' COTW, so I read over it carefully. Great stuff.



People generally aren't paying attention to hands they're not involved in. They're multi-tabling, browsing the web, or just aren't thinking that deeply about the game they're in.

Of those hands, pushes that show down are most likely to get noticed, but I don't think we have to make notes in this situation, unless we pushed due to a read on a specific opponent and it backfired. He might have just outleveled you, or your read might have been wrong in the first place. We need to note here to adjust our perception of the opponent. As far as the rest of the table, they're either thinking opponents that are aware of what just occurred and why, or they think that you're a donk and will open up their calling ranges against you (if they change at all). The former recognize that the spew was read-dependent and won't affect future hands against them, other than the fact that you can be set up by an evolving style of play, which, if you're good and they're good, was already a given, and the latter are thinking so simply that your only recourse is to simply play good poker.

I can't think of any case where we make a play and make a note for the whole table. Rather we're looking at how specific opponents perceive us after playing in hands against them.

IMO, worry less about your table image with notes and take more notes on their play. As split said, people are creatures of habit they tend to follow patterns. So if you focus on exploiting each reg individually, you should naturally be balanced.

I would only worry about image/history when you know the reg so well, you don't even need to look at the notes.
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:16 PM   #67
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by SammyG-SD View Post
IMO, worry less about your table image with notes and take more notes on their play. As split said, people are creatures of habit they tend to follow patterns. So if you focus on exploiting each reg individually, you should naturally be balanced.

I would only worry about image/history when you know the reg so well, you don't even need to look at the notes.
binK
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:25 PM   #68
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

I guess I agree. We already have our hands full taking notes on others.
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:40 PM   #69
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Would first like to thank *Split* for the Concept of the Week and Mpethybridge's link to Udbrky's thread. The contributions were much appreciated.

Since history and specific reads are not provided besides villain's seeming inexperience, the following assumes the observer is railing two unknowns.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 8 players
Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with :X :X (8 players)
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, Button folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds[img]

It is reasonable to assume a deep unknown cut off open consists of drawing hands, pairs, aces, eight high face cards or better, and Broadway. Regardless of being consciously aware, blinds know players open wider in late position and often adjust by calling with a similar range. High pairs and super premiums are unlikely given the lack of preflop action, but still possible.

Flop: ($0.70) (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.70

Donk leads suggest draws, aces, middle pair, slow played high pairs, two pair, and sets, since less experienced villain's often "bet for information" or lead when they feel strong. Cut off raise discounts speculative hands and middling pairs since it is assumed those would either fold or call: limiting possibilities to draws, combination bottom pair, top pair, and strong hands. This is opponents-specific, but villain is likely to fold middling unless peeling another card while continuing with pair combos, decent draws, top pair, sets, and two pair.

Turn: ($2.70) (2 players)SB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

Small Blind's substantial lead eliminates unimproved draws and middling hands, leaving top pair, improved combo draws, and strong hands. In general, players are more inclined to raise vulnerable strong hands when short stacked on wet textures. Calling makes Hero's perceived range top pair, draws, and less susceptible strong hands.

River: ($6.20) (2 players)
SB bets $1.73, Hero calls $1.73

Unusual sizing suggest a blocker bet, but hero's turn call increases the likelihood of Villain under betting to induce loose calls from single pairs and bluffs.

Hero showed :X :X
SB showed , two pair, Aces and Tens

Note: "Villain donk led ace-high top pair weak kicker and fired on all three streets despite being raised by preflop aggressor and block bet the river."

Observations
1. "Donk led top pair"
Checks middling and missed hands?
2. "Overplays ace-high single pairs despite having weak kickers"
Stacks off with all top pairs?
3. "Block bets the river"
Shuts down on the river with busted draws? Depending on whether villain displays the ability to fold under pressure, this may offer future bluff opportunities.

Last edited by Jen-Sung Tan; 12-02-2010 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:19 AM   #70
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Jen-Sung Tan View Post
Would first like to thank *Split* for the Concept of the Week and Mpethybridge's link to Udbrky's thread. The contributions were much appreciated.
...
no problem. i also like that you are asking questions in your notes
Spoiler:

i do that a ton, and it really helps me solidify thoughts and ideas quickly
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:41 AM   #71
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Hey Split, I just tried to write a quick reply to you from the message you sent me.. I don't want you to get the wrong idea, so is there a way you can approve for me to send you the message? I don't wanna type it again, but i will if I have to..
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:49 AM   #72
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Hey Split, I just tried to write a quick reply to you from the message you sent me.. I don't want you to get the wrong idea, so is there a way you can approve for me to send you the message? I don't wanna type it again, but i will if I have to..
you only get PMs enabled with normal forum usage.
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:59 AM   #73
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Well I explained myself thoroughly but couldn't send the message.... I am new to 2+2, and have been reading the COTW like crazy and they are so amazing, and the forums here blow DC out of the water... the reason that I posted 15 replies was so that i could have my PM rights which is to make sure that I am not spam.. I am not spam, I was wanting to be able to talk to one of the coaches listed on the forum page about getting some coaching for 50nl... Sorry you got so offended by me posting 15 short replies, but I will tell you that I read everyone of those COTW that I posted in... Thanks..
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:10 AM   #74
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Well I explained myself thoroughly but couldn't send the message.... I am new to 2+2, and have been reading the COTW like crazy and they are so amazing, and the forums here blow DC out of the water... the reason that I posted 15 replies was so that i could have my PM rights which is to make sure that I am not spam.. I am not spam, I was wanting to be able to talk to one of the coaches listed on the forum page about getting some coaching for 50nl... Sorry you got so offended by me posting 15 short replies, but I will tell you that I read everyone of those COTW that I posted in... Thanks..
PMs are enabled by normal forum usage. not by spamming replies. glad you enjoyed the COTWs though =)
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Old 03-26-2011, 02:00 PM   #75
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Move along, people. Nothing to see here.

But seriously, I know this is probably the most deficient part of my game, and that's really saying something because I suck pretty bad.

I also think this will have quite a direct impact on tilt control by being more prepared for the line a villain will take, rather than just getting AI by showdown and screaming WTF is that ****ing donkey doing calling my pre-flop 3b OOP and flopping the world every damn time mother****ing ****er **** **** ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Spoiler:
seriously.....
Spoiler:
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