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Old 11-16-2010, 04:15 PM   #26
BeezerBrigade
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

wow this is nice split, gonna reread this til i can make it a part of my game (prolly few years) lol
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Old 11-16-2010, 04:27 PM   #27
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
The great thing about all of this is that every bit of information is useful. Did our opponent call our 3bet with AA? (sweet, his 4bet range might be tainted).
What do you mean by the parenthetical above?
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Old 11-16-2010, 04:32 PM   #28
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Fly-fisher View Post
What do you mean by the parenthetical above?
The question arises - "If he's flatting AA, then what's he 4betting with?. There might be some bluffs in there".
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Old 11-16-2010, 04:34 PM   #29
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Second_chance View Post
Well put , and when I'm 24 tabling these simple scenarios come up hundreds of times each day, I can just imagine all the leaks I must have
sure, and one of them is almost certainly that you are playing 24 tables.

udbrky is a frikkin' genius, imo.
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:15 PM   #30
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
The question arises - "If he's flatting AA, then what's he 4betting with?. There might be some bluffs in there".
that
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:59 PM   #31
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Split this post was very good. Being able to draw less than obvious conclusions from our opponents play is important to gaining an edge on that player. The one i found most useful was "Called an EP range with KQ" which leads to "will probably call with AJ/AQ". In future hands, playing OOP vs this opponent we will be able to construct a much more accurate range for him that will let us optimize our play.

With that beind said, some of the notes you came up with were basic. "Understands SDV" "Called a cb" "checked back turn with TT on Kxx" are all standard plays in todays games that don't teach us a whole ton about our opponent. Especially at 50nl, where these hands were played, i expect most players I haven't already labeled as a fish to understand the concept of SDV. Could you maybe give an example of a more complicated inference you might make about an opponent? Possibly one where you think your villain is making a subjective move based on heros play?
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:11 PM   #32
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by gadolparah View Post
Split this post was very good. Being able to draw less than obvious conclusions from our opponents play is important to gaining an edge on that player. The one i found most useful was "Called an EP range with KQ" which leads to "will probably call with AJ/AQ". In future hands, playing OOP vs this opponent we will be able to construct a much more accurate range for him that will let us optimize our play.

With that beind said, some of the notes you came up with were basic. "Understands SDV" "Called a cb" "checked back turn with TT on Kxx" are all standard plays in todays games that don't teach us a whole ton about our opponent. Especially at 50nl, where these hands were played, i expect most players I haven't already labeled as a fish to understand the concept of SDV. Could you maybe give an example of a more complicated inference you might make about an opponent? Possibly one where you think your villain is making a subjective move based on heros play?
ill give you areas:

polarization of CBs
play in 3bet pots on the flop
river play
turn betting
4bet/5bet game

hopefully that gets you going =)

*SS*
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:18 PM   #33
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Great post Split
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:34 PM   #34
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Very nice poast..i never took note taking seriously because i have my hud right? so no point in taking notes..but after watching your vids i immediately implemented note taking in my game..and now we have a detailed cotw to fall back on..
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:35 PM   #35
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Evs215 View Post
Yet another great post split!

Even though there's amazing info on this post. The application of it is much tougher in game. Something I'm still working on. I take notes like this all the time. But I still go back to my bad habits and hate myself right after when I forget to apply it in game. Any advice on how to apply the info one gathers while breaking bad habits?
Probably the easiest way is to play fewer tables. One thing you can try is to drop down to one or two tables and then verbally explain your action before you make it. Say it out loud.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:36 PM   #36
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

ok, here's a sample hand where I've hidden my cards and the results. Let's take notes on villain's play. My normal note would be "donk" - looking for better notes from those better at this than I am.

Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 8 players

UTG: $3.35
UTG+1: $10.00
MP: $11.09
HJ: $19.37
CO: $11.42 (Hero)
Button: $5.26
SB: $24.78
BB: $4.40

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with :X :X (8 players)
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, Button folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.70) (2 players)
SB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($6.20) (2 players)
SB bets $1.73, Hero calls $1.73

Hero showed :X :X
SB showed , two pair, Aces and Tens
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:10 AM   #37
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
ok, here's a sample hand where I've hidden my cards and the results. Let's take notes on villain's play. My normal note would be "donk" - looking for better notes from those better at this than I am.

Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 8 players

UTG: $3.35
UTG+1: $10.00
MP: $11.09
HJ: $19.37
CO: $11.42 (Hero)
Button: $5.26
SB: $24.78
BB: $4.40

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with :X :X (8 players)
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, Button folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.70) (2 players)
SB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($6.20) (2 players)
SB bets $1.73, Hero calls $1.73

Hero showed :X :X
SB showed , two pair, Aces and Tens
calls steals OOP with A4 (probably calls with rag aces, pairs, weak BB hands, etc.)
donks TP (probably has a stronger donk range (as noted by the turn donk), confirm after another sample or two)
bet size indicates hand strength? (smaller bet on the river might indicate big bets = nuttish hands, and vice versa)
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:48 AM   #38
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by Second_chance View Post
Well put , and when I'm 24 tabling these simple scenarios come up hundreds of times each day, I can just imagine all the leaks I must have
I was going to say for all the people wanting Split to lock this up not to worry. All your regs are mass tabling and won't be able to apply this stuff anyways.
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Old 11-17-2010, 01:19 PM   #39
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

In the 10,10 example. If Villan only needs to be good here 25% of the time to call on the river, can we assume that he thinks hero's river bet is a nut or air hand? In general terms is he calling because he thinks his range overall is stronger? Post flop a bet,check,bet line is very polorized.
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Old 11-17-2010, 01:25 PM   #40
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Have stickied a link to this thread in the LLSNL forum.

Probably more applicable to live than even on-line.
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Old 11-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #41
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Im in the lock this up and throw it away camp. You just taught everyone how to think through a hand. Its gold, but it needs to be Fort Knox'd.


NH Split.

Edit: BTW, if you're not a big math guy live like I am this stuff right here pays dividends. Couple this with how people play live and this is how you put people on "one hand."
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Old 11-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #42
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by timchuk View Post
In the 10,10 example. If Villan only needs to be good here 25% of the time to call on the river, can we assume that he thinks hero's river bet is a nut or air hand? In general terms is he calling because he thinks his range overall is stronger? Post flop a bet,check,bet line is very polorized.
good man. there is the possibility that villain can read polarization from his call...but i decided to ignore it to keep the article more "concrete"

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Have stickied a link to this thread in the LLSNL forum.

Probably more applicable to live than even on-line.
sweet =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
Im in the lock this up and throw it away camp. You just taught everyone how to think through a hand. Its gold, but it needs to be Fort Knox'd.


NH Split.

Edit: BTW, if you're not a big math guy live like I am this stuff right here pays dividends. Couple this with how people play live and this is how you put people on "one hand."
thanks for the compliments...though i did the planning video (older COTW) and people still can't think through a hand 100%...the games will not die =)
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:10 PM   #43
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Thanks Split, That makes perfect sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
good man. there is the possibility that villain can read polarization from his call...but i decided to ignore it to keep the article more "concrete"



sweet =)



thanks for the compliments...though i did the planning video (older COTW) and people still can't think through a hand 100%...the games will not die =)
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:05 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf View Post
ok, here's a sample hand where I've hidden my cards and the results. Let's take notes on villain's play. My normal note would be "donk" - looking for better notes from those better at this than I am.

Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 8 players

UTG: $3.35
UTG+1: $10.00
MP: $11.09
HJ: $19.37
CO: $11.42 (Hero)
Button: $5.26
SB: $24.78
BB: $4.40

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with :X :X (8 players)
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, Button folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.70) (2 players)
SB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

River: ($6.20) (2 players)
SB bets $1.73, Hero calls $1.73

Hero showed :X :X
SB showed , two pair, Aces and Tens
A simple note to take would be something like "defends suited aces from the blinds, plays weak TP hands aggro OOP....might tailor bet sizing on absolute hand strength"
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:27 PM   #45
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Great post.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:43 PM   #46
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by OoLethaLoO View Post
A simple note to take would be something like "defends suited aces from the blinds, plays weak TP hands aggro OOP....might tailor bet sizing on absolute hand strength"
I think i would prefer "lolbad"
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:40 PM   #47
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Another solid COTW from Split. Can't wait for the book.
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Old 11-18-2010, 01:36 AM   #48
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
calls steals OOP with A4 (probably calls with rag aces, pairs, weak BB hands, etc.)
donks TP (probably has a stronger donk range (as noted by the turn donk), confirm after another sample or two)
bet size indicates hand strength? (smaller bet on the river might indicate big bets = nuttish hands, and vice versa)
You could also label this player as someone who plays very straightforwardly and bets their hands. The point is that most players would check call this flop to let the PF aggressor bluff at it with his entire range, but this player chooses to bet their marginal hand.

You could also note a few interesting things regarding how this player responds to boards with multiple draws. First, their call of hero's flop raise indicates a tendency to assign some (possibly too many) draws to hero's range. This tendency is continued on the turn as the FD missed but the SD hit, so they bet/probably fold thinking hero will continue or fold with a FD but raise a SD. This donk bet stops hero from betting a FD as a bluff to rep hitting the straight, a bet which villain may have to fold to with a river bet looming. The river bet, though it may be an indication of hand strength, may also be a result of villain's assumption that you were drawing. Since you called the turn, indicating a FD and not a hit straight, they are betting small knowing that hero will fold missed draws rather than bluff raise and a raise likely indicates a strong hand from hero. The river bet stops hero again from bluffing missed draws. Based on this hand, it is likely that in order to bet missed draws (or while on the draw) against this villain, it will likely need to be a raise because they tend to bet/probably fold with marginal hands instead of checking and calling to let you bluff your draws.

Taking this one step further, this tendency to b/f marginal hands on drawy boards instead of checking and calling indicates this player is afraid of being outdrawn and favors "protecting his hand" over controlling the pot. Therefore, since they bet marginal hands like TPNK on somewhat drawy boards, when they check it is more likely to indicate weakness (unless they check the nuts a lot, which you can uncover from other hands). It would also likely be profitable to raise/f when draws hit because villain will often fold the marginal hands he was "protecting"

A bit long but there is my thoughts. Make sense or am I off base here?
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:35 AM   #49
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by cushlash View Post
You could also label this player as someone who plays very straightforwardly and bets their hands. The point is that most players would check call this flop to let the PF aggressor bluff at it with his entire range, but this player chooses to bet their marginal hand.

You could also note a few interesting things regarding how this player responds to boards with multiple draws. First, their call of hero's flop raise indicates a tendency to assign some (possibly too many) draws to hero's range. This tendency is continued on the turn as the FD missed but the SD hit, so they bet/probably fold thinking hero will continue or fold with a FD but raise a SD. This donk bet stops hero from betting a FD as a bluff to rep hitting the straight, a bet which villain may have to fold to with a river bet looming. The river bet, though it may be an indication of hand strength, may also be a result of villain's assumption that you were drawing. Since you called the turn, indicating a FD and not a hit straight, they are betting small knowing that hero will fold missed draws rather than bluff raise and a raise likely indicates a strong hand from hero. The river bet stops hero again from bluffing missed draws. Based on this hand, it is likely that in order to bet missed draws (or while on the draw) against this villain, it will likely need to be a raise because they tend to bet/probably fold with marginal hands instead of checking and calling to let you bluff your draws.

Taking this one step further, this tendency to b/f marginal hands on drawy boards instead of checking and calling indicates this player is afraid of being outdrawn and favors "protecting his hand" over controlling the pot. Therefore, since they bet marginal hands like TPNK on somewhat drawy boards, when they check it is more likely to indicate weakness (unless they check the nuts a lot, which you can uncover from other hands). It would also likely be profitable to raise/f when draws hit because villain will often fold the marginal hands he was "protecting"

A bit long but there is my thoughts. Make sense or am I off base here?
not saying the assumptions aren't valid...but you don't want to overdraw conclusions from super limited pieces of info imo. always best to make wide inferences as opposed to entire thought processes (esp from someone who might not even have much of a thought process, lol)
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:18 AM   #50
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Re: COTW - Getting Diamonds From Charcoal

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Originally Posted by cushlash View Post
A bit long but there is my thoughts. Make sense or am I off base here?
Your analysis is very solid, but I'm not sure that this villain is thinking any of this. I believe that this villain's thought process is more like...

"Hey, there's an ace on the board and one in my hand. Weeeeeeeee!".
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