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Old 01-15-2011, 04:09 PM   #51
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post

Talk Out Loud:
That I need to start doing! Sometimes I read a book out loud to understand the point in it and it helps. Now I wonder why I haven't done it while playing poker. It sounds so logic to think out loud all your decisions and further game plan, at least for me. Will try it for sure.

Thanks *Split* that was a very helpful COTW.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:43 PM   #52
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by vrbik View Post
Thank you for the great COTW. I have one question. How many tables are you able to play and still talk loud to yourself? I think its great idea, which i want to compose into my play. Thank you for answer. GL
I play anywhere from 9 to 24 tables when playing FR. but even when i was doing some 30-40 tabling I would still talk out loud.

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Originally Posted by *COINFLIPS* View Post
how can we simultaneously be non-results oriented AND have a stop loss? if one were perfectly non-results oriented (ie, did not tilt regardless of winnings or losings), what would be the point?
when you are 100% non-results oriented you don't need stoplosses/stopwins/etc. on a very related note, I would love to meet someone who is 100% non-results oriented.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:24 PM   #53
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

nice poast Split. cant imagain lisiting to the same song on a loop though. been working on excution for a while, not too good at it. i read a few threads by boywonder that helped. he suggests to take two deep breaths anytime your about to go all in. this has help alot.
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:59 PM   #54
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

What became of Boywonder after the whole coaching scandal thing? Don't wanna derail the COTW, just curious.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:07 PM   #55
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by bluelite View Post
That I need to start doing! Sometimes I read a book out loud to understand the point in it and it helps. Now I wonder why I haven't done it while playing poker. It sounds so logic to think out loud all your decisions and further game plan, at least for me. Will try it for sure.

Thanks *Split* that was a very helpful COTW.
no problem =)

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Originally Posted by zocketpocket View Post
nice poast Split. cant imagain lisiting to the same song on a loop though. been working on excution for a while, not too good at it. i read a few threads by boywonder that helped. he suggests to take two deep breaths anytime your about to go all in. this has help alot.
the same song on repeat calms my ADD brain. and that tip from BW def makes sense

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What became of Boywonder after the whole coaching scandal thing? Don't wanna derail the COTW, just curious.
no idea
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:11 PM   #56
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

try this for same song on repeat:
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Originally Posted by DamnRinger View Post
...or the extended version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYtKxbWHlTk
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:01 AM   #57
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Great timing on this CoTW, as I think execution is the one thing I need to work on the most. This is why I love reading and re-reading about poker concepts ; sometimes you just need someone to reword something you may already know in just the right way for it to stick (I particularly like the execution EV formula ITT, helps me remember that mistakes is the price we pay to play and there's no avoiding it). Whenever I have a downswing that lasts a while and gets me down psychologically, I try to use it as a "time-out" to review my game. To do so, I like to step down a limit for awhile and carefully analyze my play, my strategy and how I apply it. In my latest analysis, I realized that poor execution was one thing that slowly creeped into my game.

One thing I always find hard in poker is to balance your aggression. You need a proper balance to play optimally ; if you let go of too many spots, you're leaving too much money on the table. On the other hand, as you learn to attack dead money, you may end up going overboard and spew. Even if it's only a handful of bad cbets and barrels per session, it can add up quickly in a game where edges are small.

Personally, there's one thing that messes up my execution a lot and it seems to be a recurring theme. Whenever I have a significant downswing, over at least 30-40k hands, I get a confidence hit. No matter that I have 80+ buy-ins or that i've won at >1.5ptBB/100 over 100k+ hands, suddenly it's like all that disappeared and i'm sitting down at the tables for the first time and i'm afraid of spewing my roll. I try too hard, I get into more marginal spots to "outplay" the competition, I hero call that one last bet, even though the stats clearly said the guy was passive OTR, etc etc. In short, just plain & poor execution!

Thus, i'm glad that this CoTW came right in the middle of one of these swings to help me out, hehe. Here's some stuff that works for me :

- Pre-session meditation. Nothing fancy, just slowing my breathing down for a minute, focusing on what I want to achieve in this session and basically just relaxing a bit so my brain is centered on the task at hand.
- Non-aggressive music. In fact, I have a hard time playing without any music. TV/internet/chat is a big no-no though.
- When my confidence is shaken, I fall back on stats. Obviously I don't forget all the strategy, but in doubt, follow the stats. For example, whenever I make a non-standard play, such as a 3b/4b light or a b3b rebluff, or whatever, I check the stats. Is his range appropriate for the move here? Is the read over a significant sample? Yes? Then I make the move. Just checking the stats helps me double-check why i'm doing this. This is especially important when my confidence is on the low-side. Even though it seems like i'm getting 3b & raised at every corner, the stats don't lie and guide me to the correct read, despite my perception, which may be flawed.

I also like to keep a list of the more stupid mistakes I do and I leave the notepads right on my desktop so I always see them. Here's the list at the moment :

- Make sure you have enough data before making a big move/hero call
- Stop calling rivers like a stupid station
- Stop looking at all-in results unless seeing villain's cards will really help a read later on (I play stacked)
- No FPS bluffs ffs
- Don't cbet tight 3b call ranges, they never fold, esp after you 3b them 5 times in 2 orbits!
- Don't barrel fish. No, that 3flush 3straight overcard OTT didn't scare them.
- Trust Agg reads. TPGK is no good against the river bet from that 15% AfQ guy.
- Fold to huge overbet raises unless you have the read of the century, seriously.
- Also respect big bets unless you have a damn good reason not to.

and last but not least

- Thinking about betting big? STOP! Why am I betting big? Find the reason BEFORE betting. Still good? Allright, bet big then.


I'm still nowhere near 100% execution, but i've found that these simple tricks have improved my results. Now I just need to stop beating myself up over silly mistakes, trust the stats/reads and make the appropriate plays, get my confidence back on track and get my grind on!

Last edited by NDHand; 01-18-2011 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:05 AM   #58
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

nice addition to the thread ND
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:15 AM   #59
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by flip2win View Post
a mid-stakes player used to tell me....think before you make a play. i think most people including me don't consider all the options/info before making the decision.
IMHO, this should be "think before you make an *unusual* play. Realistically, you cannot think about every single little bet and preflop raise, there's simply no time. But whenever you're making a more advanced play, especially if it involves big bets, then you should always take a moment to ponder exactly why you're doing it. Consistently doing that fights drifting and avoids subtle spew.


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Originally Posted by Lx12 View Post
Nice post Split - execution is my biggest weakness too - I know where all the right buttons are, it's just finding a way to push them.

The best way to execute is to say I am going to bet/fold because...

Decide what you are doing and why you are doing it before the action occurs. This prevents spite calling. One downside of this is that it can produce tilt as we always remember b/f and so we think ppl are playing back at us.

This is usually what I try to do but even then it doesn't always stop the mistakes. I vividly remember one hand where I turned a straight, I bet out, and DannyOhBoy called. River falls and pairs the board. At this point I CLEARLY remember my inner dialogue (easy small bet/fold, Danny is never EVER raising less than a boat here, but may call a small bet with trips or a weaker straight).

So I bet out, clear out some actions on other tables and come back to this facing a 2.5x small'ish raise from Danny. "Welp, things went exactly according to plan, Danny of course has his boat, time to fold".... and I clicked call. Sure enough, he had a boat. I was literally stunned for a few seconds there thinking "goddamn, what is wrong with me, didn't I just reason out this hand 8 seconds ago?". TBH, I don't think it's possible to completely avoid those donkey moments, just need to focus on getting as few of them as possible.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:54 AM   #60
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by NDHand View Post
IMHO, this should be "think before you make an *unusual* play. Realistically, you cannot think about every single little bet and preflop raise, there's simply no time. But whenever you're making a more advanced play, especially if it involves big bets, then you should always take a moment to ponder exactly why you're doing it. Consistently doing that fights drifting and avoids subtle spew.





This is usually what I try to do but even then it doesn't always stop the mistakes. I vividly remember one hand where I turned a straight, I bet out, and DannyOhBoy called. River falls and pairs the board. At this point I CLEARLY remember my inner dialogue (easy small bet/fold, Danny is never EVER raising less than a boat here, but may call a small bet with trips or a weaker straight).

So I bet out, clear out some actions on other tables and come back to this facing a 2.5x small'ish raise from Danny. "Welp, things went exactly according to plan, Danny of course has his boat, time to fold".... and I clicked call. Sure enough, he had a boat. I was literally stunned for a few seconds there thinking "goddamn, what is wrong with me, didn't I just reason out this hand 8 seconds ago?". TBH, I don't think it's possible to completely avoid those donkey moments, just need to focus on getting as few of them as possible.

This is very true for me also. I'd be so much less annoyed with realising after the hand I just had a bad plan/strategy going in, as I can fix that, but thinking it through and then not following through on your own reads is just so ridiculous. I also certainly need to do less justifying of this behaviour to myself by thinking that getting the note on villains play is going to even itself out through future earnings...
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:29 PM   #61
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Executing a strategy requires having and knowing a strategy. Do you think it is beneficial and/or feasible to try and verbalize a strategy in all details? As in, what line we usually take in any given situation, which additional information would cause us to change that line, etc.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:34 PM   #62
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

I don't think you need to go in extreme details, especially if you're mass-tabling. But just giving a quick explanation can make you go "wtf" or "yep, this makes sense". For example, before you make a barrel, you say "opponent calls wide preflop and has a low ftcb otf, so his range is weak OTT and this turn overcard will likely make him fold any weak pair if I bet. Or "no weaker hands fold if I bet here, but he may well bet air if I check to him, so c/c it is", "villain is never calling with worse or folding better, so I check. He's also passive and will never bet worse so if he bets, I fold" and then you proceed. Whenever I do that, I usually have better results than if I don't. After a while, it becomes second nature and you sometimes do it without even realizing it.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:55 PM   #63
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

I actually meant offline, getting it down on paper...
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:55 PM   #64
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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I actually meant offline, getting it down on paper...
doing in-depth line exploration off the table is usually a great idea imo
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:34 PM   #65
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

awesome...looking forward to your teachings
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:41 PM   #66
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

nice read... btw im glad im not the only one who speaks silently to himself about ranges etc during hands hhaahah... speaking to your monitor would look so wierd if someone was in my room and i didnt know it or something
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:24 PM   #67
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Great read, Split, thank you!

I think that adding the discipline to study the game when you are not playing is a good point to add. My personal experience has been that I study less when I win more, and only when I go on a screaming downswing do I turn to the books and websites and review my sessions like I should.

I've played up to $200 and as low as $10 NL, all within the last 18 months partly because of the lack of discipline. I should be the poster child for setting a stop loss. It's really a vicious circle, you take a couple of bad beats, think you are playing well, so you keep going, when in reality you've made a couple of donk moves/shoves and there goes yet another BI. Then you get in the mindset that you have to get unstuck, so the 3 BI session loss becomes 5, etc. To take it further, then that 3-4 day losing streak that would only encompass 6-8 BI can quickly spiral to 15. I always thought I had good BR management because I would move down when my BR dropped below my tolerated BIs for a level. In reality, my discipline sucks because I don't get up from the computer once I drop 3 BI or whatever level I set. I keep playing to get unstuck. I keep playing because I need my Ironman day. I keep playing because I don't play for a living, and I have a family, so the amount of time I get to play is limited....etc, etc.....

Lastly, discipline is very important for making the right play, each and every time, obviously. Taking the hand off of the mouse is something else I've heard of and should do but don't. The other night, in the middle of this bad strech of days I've had, I was actually up slightly for the night and was shutting down. I make an incorrect PF call in a 3bet pot, flop the hand I'm looking for, and run smack into the top of the 3bettor's range on the flop and I know it. Do I fold to his bet? No, I run a stupid bluff at him knowing I shouldn't, for no other reason than lack of discipline. My small win becomes a small loss and a total mindset change on the evening. Many times I've called out my opponent's likely hole cards, talk myself out of it, showdown and lose to the exact hand (or range) that I put him on. Discipline to execute the right strategy also includes the discipline to follow your instincts and act on them, instead of ignoring them.

Discipline to execute your gameplan can take a breakeven RB pro and turn him into a solid winner. Discipline to stop when you are playing bad do the same thing.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:43 AM   #68
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by Cangurino View Post
Executing a strategy requires having and knowing a strategy. Do you think it is beneficial and/or feasible to try and verbalize a strategy in all details? As in, what line we usually take in any given situation, which additional information would cause us to change that line, etc.
It's very beneficial to know what you know and what you don't know (yet). Esp when improving is your main goal.

It is also beneficial for some-one trying to build a bot. He will have to describe his strategy in detail. Feasible? The best bots out there would give you an indication how feasible it is to verbalize/describe/program a strategy in all details.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:00 PM   #69
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

A good read. I really like looking at this kind of stuff after booking a few sessions of solid play but terrible results. I think a lot of poker is learning tilt control. Thanks for the post.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:55 AM   #70
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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It is also beneficial for some-one trying to build a bot. He will have to describe his strategy in detail. Feasible? The best bots out there would give you an indication how feasible it is to verbalize/describe/program a strategy in all details.
That's a good point. We say that you haven't really understood something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. In the same way you could say that you haven't understood a strategy (or more to the point, you don't have a strategy) unless you can put it in code. I have written bots before (for chess, not for poker), so this may explain my way of thinking about these things.

In chess we're at the point where the best bots can compete with the best humans. However humans use a lot of pattern recognition, experience, and intuition in their thought process in order to take shortcuts. This has not yet been modeled in published programs, and so bots rely on brute force computations. I guess something similar happens at the highest levels of poker.

I think it should be feasible to write a bot that beats full ring micro and possibly small stakes games, or at least that part of the bot that makes the decisions. However since there is no legal way of testing such a program I won't waste time and energy on it.

However this discussion may go beyond the topic of this thread.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:17 PM   #71
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Originally Posted by Cangurino View Post
I think it should be feasible to write a bot that beats full ring micro and possibly small stakes games, or at least that part of the bot that makes the decisions. However since there is no legal way of testing such a program I won't waste time and energy on it.
Before Indy started working for Stars, he'd be all over this. Bots exist, but they suffer from a lack of processing power. That said, as processing costs continue to drop, it is only a matter of time before a major scandal occurs with a bot.
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:45 AM   #72
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Excellent CoTW, thanks v much. Love to hear more about ppls processes and rituals.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:48 PM   #73
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

Would just like to thank Split for an excellent CoTW.
Execution is probably what i've struggled with the most while moving up in stakes, this has definitely shed some new light on the subject.

I also realized that I have somewhat been using methods mentioned in the OP without really giving it any thought. For instance I have on occasion been talking to myself during difficult hands and have sort of this special genre of music that i normally listen to while playing.
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Old 02-11-2011, 04:19 PM   #74
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

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Would just like to thank Split for an excellent CoTW.
Execution is probably what i've struggled with the most while moving up in stakes, this has definitely shed some new light on the subject.

I also realized that I have somewhat been using methods mentioned in the OP without really giving it any thought. For instance I have on occasion been talking to myself during difficult hands and have sort of this special genre of music that i normally listen to while playing.
np =)
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:42 PM   #75
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Re: COTW - Execution In Poker

last cpl comments focus on calling when in fact you know villians got you beat...reminds me of daniel on tv..."you must have the king...you must have the king...ok i call.....the king makes sense".....

my comment is the reverse....i knew 30 times yesterday i could bet pot on river and ship it...only to chk it down and see bottom pair as expected...im a fish anyways...but wondered how many people have same instinct in a session....is this an execution leak or common when confidence gets crushed ...ive always been a lurker but plan on being more active on 2+2 so hopefully with welcome arms....lol...like the mental game great post op
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