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Old 01-31-2011, 05:51 PM   #1
DonkDonkDonkDonk
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Arrow COTW: Donk Betting

Introduction

A donk bet is a bet made before the aggressor in the previous street. It is a bet that is often frowned upon on these forums, hence it’s name the “donk” bet. We all know fish love to donk bet, but can you use the donk bet effectively and profitably? I believe you can.

Why is Donk Betting Considered Bad?

Well fish donk bet, and who wants to be a fish???? Fish donk bet for a few reasons;

1. They want to see where they are at
2. They have a strong hand and have no idea how to play it
3. They want to see the next card for cheap
4. They are literally mashing buttons randomly like a crazed monkey.

Obviously none of these are good reasons to do anything.

Probably the main reason not to donk bet is because people love to c-bet. Even most fish know on some level that if they raise preflop they should bet the flop. This means that check/raising the flop becomes more effective and profitable. The more likely someone is to c-bet the less you would want to donk bet.

Why is Donk Betting Good?

Well for the exact opposite of the reason why it is considered bad. If someone is not going to c-bet often in a certain spot then you should be donk betting more. The decision to donk or not to donk comes down mainly to the villain's propensity to c-bet. This includes his c-bet %, flop texture, relative position, and stack sizes.

Another reason why donk betting can be a good play is that regs on a whole do not know how to deal with donk bets and thus are prone to make more mistakes than they would normally to a check/raise or check/call.

Donk Betting For Value


Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN: $50.00 15/11/2, 53% CB, 40% ATS over 600 hands
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $61.70
UTG: $52.75
CO: $38.15

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with 7 7
2 folds, BTN raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.50) 7 6 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.55

Here is a spot where the BTN has a low c-bet % and the board comes out such that he's going to check this board back unless he has a strong hand. Going for a check/raise in this spot will result in him checking back a lot of the time. So why not donk bet? You are still getting it in vs the same hands that will stack off vs a check/raise and you are preventing the turn coming a 3,5,8,9 or without him paying to see it. Note: if his c-bet % was 92, then it's a clear check/raise because he's betting this flop a lot more than he should.

Flop texture is another consideration, the board above is a bad one to c-bet because AK does not hit it, and neither does AQ. So this villain who only c-bets 53% of the time is still going to c-bet A 9 7 with a lot more of his range than he'll c-bet the flop in the HH example.

You don't have to have the nutty nuts to donk for value. You can donk TP and other such medium strength hands if you think he can call with worse.

But What About Donking as a Bluff?????!?!?!?!?!?!

Well the same concepts apply, if he isn't c-betting frequently in a spot then by all means use the donk bet as a bluff. In this hand we are against the same villain as the last one.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN: $50.00 15/11/2, 53% CB, 40% ATS over 600 hands
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $61.70
UTG: $52.75
CO: $38.15

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with K J
2 folds, BTN raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.50) T 9 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50

We called preflop because we are ahead of his stealing range, but the reasoning behind the preflop call is unimportant. We flop a bit of equity, we have a gutshot and two overs on a ten high board. This seems like a good board to check/raise, correct? Well villain is probably thinking that too and isn't going to c-bet this board light because it hits our perceived range harder than it hit theirs. So if you check he'll likely check it too, so this in my opinion is a good spot to add some bluffs into your donk betting range.

Note: An important thing to remember when deciding to donk is your own propensity to check/raise, have you check/raised this opponent before? What did you show? If he sees you as a frequent check/raiser then donking is good because he'll likely check behind a lot more, but if you never check/raise he'll likely c-bet a higher % of his range, making a donk less profitable.

Make sure when you are bluffing (and this applies to most bluffing spots) that you have a bit of equity that you can hit on the turn/river. Even so much as a back-door flush draw makes a bluff more +ev, but things like straight draws, over cards, etc makes it so much easier to play on later streets if called.

Multi-Way Pots

One of the most useful times to donk is in multi-way pots, but it's all about relative position. Like everything in multi-way pots, you're going to be more value orientated. When you flop a nutty hand with a fish and a reg in the pot and the choice is between a check/raise or donk/3bet, always consider the fish's position. You want to trap the fish's money as they will pay you off with a wider range than the reg. So if it goes You-Reg-Fish then you would be better check/raising as the reg can c-bet, the fish can call, allowing you to shovel more money into the pot, however if it's You-Fish-Reg, consider donk/3betting as you can get the fish to call your bet before the reg has the opportunity to raise. It's all about relative position, which is one of the funnest concepts in poker, you can bluff vs one opponent and value bet another in the same street of poker, which has endless implications.

Remember the more people in the hand the less likely someone is to c-bet light and therefore you should be donking more frequently in these spots (and obviously more for value).

Multi-Street Planning

Obviously I've talked a lot about flop play, but the concepts are still the same on the turn and river. If they aren't going to double barrel often, then c/c, donk line is perfectly valid, same on the river. This is where good hand reading becomes important, you are trying to manipulate their range to make you the most money. How? Well you've got to try these things out for yourself, that's the fun part .

Conclusion

I hope to get some discussion over donking in general. I know a lot of people hate it, I for one, like donking, if used properly and with good reasoning behind it. The games are still very c-bet happy so it should have limited application, but adding it to your game can make you a more tricky opponent and be able to make the most of profitable situations however they present themselves. Remember to always be looking for the best play at anytime, no matter how weird or unorthodox it could be.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:53 PM   #2
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

frist?

Reading - thanks!
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:01 PM   #3
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

One of my favorite spots to donk is to check call the flop OOP against steals and lead the turn. Look for regs with a 20ish steal percent (likley to be very pair/A heavy - meaning they miss a TON of flops) High C-bet and low turn bet, then start donking the turn. Be warned though, more aggro regs like to raise the turn donk a little to light.
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:47 PM   #4
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Well written and explained.

Somebody should give an follow up on the turn/river with examples.

No doubt that donk betting has its place in good poker.
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:55 PM   #5
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

dnok betting is an awsome tool specially against agresive fish
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:08 PM   #6
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

I forgot to add that to some donking induces spazzes and spew.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:13 PM   #7
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

good post I will add a few:

1) Donking the vulnerable nuts in a MW pot.

Say we have 77 on the SB on a
7h6h2c board and its 4+way in a single raised pot.

we can bet here for value and expect the pot to get bloated enough with that the turn we can put everyone in. Plus with it being MW a lot of range has been hit.

2) Donking the virtual nuts into a tight-aggressive players tight range. (this is a play on the bet to induce spazz)
Say we have 9s7s and the board is
8s6sAc. We can donk this expecting him to raise a lot of aces or pure bluffs and we are happing to get it in. He may also float here with middle strength hands or just fold them (or best yet, call and fold to the second barrel). Plus the continuation range gets small we can get paid on the river for a good chunk of money. This works great when we get in a 3bet pot deep and hit a straight or triple barrel and the flush hits.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:44 PM   #8
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

I think not enough people consider donking hands like TPWK, and strong draws (or sometimes worse) when the action is going to go you, good reg, fish.

The idea is that the reg is "handcuffed" by the fish that is left to act and forced to play honestly. Due to this, he will basically never cbet as a bluff, and can never bluff raise or float your donk bet as the fish behind will call too often. The bigger of a "whale" the fish is, the better, as the reg will get out of line less, and you can value bet vs the whale insanely thin.


Also look for regs that steal wide from the button, and check back the flop IP with weak top pair hands and look to get a street of value on the turn or river. When you flop TPGK+, you can often get two streets of value as opposed to the one that they'll bet. Just have an idea how they'll respond to your bet with thier bluff range to avoid getting blown off the best hand.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:14 PM   #9
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Just like to add, that playing OOP sucks and should be avoided when possible, do not start calling wide from the blinds against good players just to mess with them, save that for being in position.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:19 PM   #10
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

What more appropriate topic for 4xDonk to write than donk betting... Well played Sir!

Last edited by phebous; 01-31-2011 at 10:34 PM. Reason: increasing the Nxdonk
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:32 PM   #11
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

I would like to add, you can over do the donk betting just like any concept. It is a stat that I watch often.

It is surprising how many fish will donk 1 to 3bb into 10 to 20bb pot. What I find is that they are rising with air or usually a small pair. You can raise them with air to standard ¾ pot bet and they will fold most times. Make sure you watch the fold to flop stat to determine their tendency to float of fold. Be careful through, there are argodonks out there that will do it to induce a spaz and will commonly float your raise. You will have to double barrel them strong and this usually will blow them off their hand. Be sure to watch the fold to turn before double barrel. However, if you let off the bet button on the river, they will try to take it away from you almost always. They will usually with a top/middle pair hand with a weak kicker, so it is a good spot to get some extra value by then trying to check raising a monster.

Boy, I love the donk betters!
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:34 PM   #12
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

What about balancing range vs regs?
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:46 PM   #13
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

I can think of only 4-5 regs at 50 that I would worry about having somewhat balanced ranges.

If you insist, bluff some and value bet some, take a note of what the villain has seen you do. Don't use balancing as an excuse for spew.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:35 AM   #14
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Very nicely written.Thnx.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:39 AM   #15
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Just one thing.Can u please write more on how to handle donk from fishes.i have seen a few fishes donk about40-50% of the time and that too more than 70% of the pot and i just felt lost not knowing how to handle it.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:20 AM   #16
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

This should help you out.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:35 PM   #17
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkDonkDonkDonk View Post
I forgot to add that to some donking induces spazzes and spew.
I just stacked someone twice doing this. Once with an op in mw pot where I didn't expect him to cbet with 4 others and another time with a flopped set that I donked because I then knew he can raise a donk with a wide range.

I should clearify. The first time there were a few limpers and the CO raised. I called from the blinds in order to keep his range wider and the limpers called. When the flop came it was low cards, 37T if I remember so I donked. Ended up stacking him with AJ unimproved so I noted that and later, when he came back around I donked a flopped set and got it in on the flop vs AA.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:43 PM   #18
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Donks have made me a ton of money over the past several months. This is a BIG thank you to all that have donked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejuggernaut View Post
Also look for regs that steal wide from the button..... Just have an idea how they'll respond to your bet with thier bluff range to avoid getting blown off the best hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phebous View Post
I would like to add, you can over do the donk betting just like any concept.
.
.
.
.
.
Boy, I love the donk betters!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posiedon View Post
Just one thing.Can u please write more on how to handle donk from fishes.i have seen a few fishes donk about40-50% of the time and that too more than 70% of the pot and i just felt lost not knowing how to handle it.
If you have a hand, call
If you don't, raise
EZ game
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:24 PM   #19
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkDonkDonkDonk View Post
thnx.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:40 PM   #20
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Bloody donk bettors - stop encouraging the buggers.



.







.

Last edited by JustinJude; 02-01-2011 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Thx for the COTW.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:32 PM   #21
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

nice cotw! ive been having trouble with this lately along with every other leak in the book. thanks!
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:00 PM   #22
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Thank you sir!
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:14 AM   #23
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Nice COTW man.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:14 AM   #24
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Nice COTW but a few remarks to help the discussion ( I hope);

#1: The title is not correct imho. This COTW is about:

"When donkbetting becomes leading"
"Fish donk, 2+2-ers lead"

or something along those lines.
I expect more questions about "lol villain donked into me" and you 'll have to redirect them the other COTW again.

#2: This thread could split into two discussion lines. When do we want to lead/donk {OP content}? What do we do with a reg/decent villain leading into us? {Beyond OP content} Preference?

#3: Are we talking here about floating preflop to lead the flop or is this about coldcalling and advanced coldcalling?

Anyway, think I'll read those again just to be save.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:45 AM   #25
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Re: COTW: Donk Betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutti View Post
What about balancing range vs regs?
You can balance your donking range by including draws, this will also allow us to continue our aggression on the turn/river if villain calls. Plus it gives us another way to win the pot instead of just c/c'ing and hoping to hit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadX View Post
Nice COTW but a few remarks to help the discussion ( I hope);

#1: The title is not correct imho. This COTW is about:

"When donkbetting becomes leading"
"Fish donk, 2+2-ers lead"

or something along those lines.
I expect more questions about "lol villain donked into me" and you 'll have to redirect them the other COTW again.

#2: This thread could split into two discussion lines. When do we want to lead/donk {OP content}? What do we do with a reg/decent villain leading into us? {Beyond OP content} Preference?

#3: Are we talking here about floating preflop to lead the flop or is this about coldcalling and advanced coldcalling?

Anyway, think I'll read those again just to be save.
1. Wat? Donk betting and leading are the same thing.

2. What we do when a reg/anybody donks into us depends on their range for donking. Take note of what they donked with if you get to showdown with them and start to try to understand what range of hands they're donking with.

There's also a donk bet % stat on the HEM HUD that we can use to have an idea of how often they donk which can help us understand what range of hands they're doing it with.

3. Whether or not we lead the flop depends on the board texture, our relative position in the hand and villain tendencies. Calling PF with the intention to donk bet any flop is probably not a good plan.

Last edited by 300zxrider; 02-03-2011 at 02:02 AM.
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