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Old 12-16-2009, 03:40 PM   #101
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

What are some of the postflop pitfalls that can sink someone trying this?
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:59 PM   #102
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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What are some of the postflop pitfalls that can sink someone trying this?
hitting a marginal hand and overvaluing it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:04 PM   #103
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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hitting a marginal hand and overvaluing it.
+1

and going way over an opponents threshold while bluffing
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:15 PM   #104
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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+1

and going way over an opponents threshold while bluffing
Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Is this like when you said it's better to threaten a 36bb pot than a 40bb pot when opponent only wants a 35bb pot?
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:17 PM   #105
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Is this like when you said it's better to threaten a 36bb pot than a 40bb pot when opponent only wants a 35bb pot?
right. like a lot of new-LAGs will not think "OK...if i bet here, I am making this HUGE ass pot...but what does he really continue with if I bet it?". they just think "**** him, Im betting here and he's going to fold *bet* *call* MOTHERLASJDFLKJSDLKFJLSJF HOW DOES HE ALWAYS HAVE LKSJDFLKJASLKDFLKSAF 2 PR?!?!?!?!!"
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:35 PM   #106
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Why are way more people responding to this cotw then cotw's on actual poker/mindset concepts?
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:40 PM   #107
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Why are way more people responding to this cotw then cotw's on actual poker/mindset concepts?
because LAG is obv cool and not standard you noob...
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:42 PM   #108
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Why are way more people responding to this cotw then cotw's on actual poker/mindset concepts?
I think it's because trying to be a LAG is something many micro stakes players struggle transitioning too, and is a concept many players (myself included) need a lot of guidance and time spent to play correctly.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:45 PM   #109
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Why are way more people responding to this cotw then cotw's on actual poker/mindset concepts?
my guess is because LAG is a "cool" fad...and also because LAG is a wide open topic...not a single play to add to the playbook that has clearcut parameters.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:00 PM   #110
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I'm following it because there is so much specific post flop thought theory and on how to play against reg type players. The information in here can be applied to any style of play really.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:39 PM   #111
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Why are way more people responding to this cotw then cotw's on actual poker/mindset concepts?
Because most TAGs (myself included) aren't that great postflop, so obviously it must be a problem with their preflop play style and not with their postflop skills.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:01 PM   #112
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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right. like a lot of new-LAGs will not think "OK...if i bet here, I am making this HUGE ass pot...but what does he really continue with if I bet it?". they just think "**** him, Im betting here and he's going to fold *bet* *call* MOTHERLASJDFLKJSDLKFJLSJF HOW DOES HE ALWAYS HAVE LKSJDFLKJASLKDFLKSAF 2 PR?!?!?!?!!"
I still find myself doing this After getting called by bottom pair, I have to show him who'se E-penis is the largest. So I try to bluff him off EVERY hand, EVERY opportunity. It's probably one of my (if not the biggest) biggest leaks.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:18 PM   #113
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I think this is one of the more advanced concepts on here. Also, it's very exotic to most TAG trained 2+2ers.

For me, I kind of play that way anyways, so I want to build on that.

And besides, LAGs get all the chicks.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:26 PM   #114
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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I still find myself doing this After getting called by bottom pair, I have to show him who'se E-penis is the largest. So I try to bluff him off EVERY hand, EVERY opportunity. It's probably one of my (if not the biggest) biggest leaks.
It's my biggest leak by far. I swear, if I could stop doing it, I'd be beating these games with like 25bb/100.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:00 PM   #115
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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read Mpethy's post in that thread imo for real info
I actually found 4 quotes from Mpethy in the 25NL Lag thread. Most of them were defending you from people charging you were just lucky. I hope that you did not think that was my intention.

I found the video to be an excellent introduction to your COTW. I went back and watched the video again (I have it saved) and many of your moves are better understood after reading the COTW.

When Mpethy references your iso plays after checking villain's stats it goes to the heart of what I am gaining from this thread. The concepts behind playing LAG are not to play more hands and raise more aggressively with air, they are to put yourself into situations where it is difficult for the villain to continue against you. Cash money from the redline!

Everyone should take some time and re-watch the video.

Thanks again for an excellent post.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:13 PM   #116
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by I vi ii V7 View Post
Because most TAGs (myself included) aren't that great postflop, so obviously it must be a problem with their preflop play style and not with their postflop skills.
QFT (about myself).

Another reason is despite hundreds of hours on this board, many of us haven't truly broken the idea that poker is about pushing people off of hands with sick betting.

Finally, we aren't good enough to recognize that you play TAG when it is most profitable to play TAG and play LAG when it is most profitable to play LAG, not play TAG or LAG no matter what. If we ever got good, we'd be able to switch styles hand to hand if necessary.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:21 PM   #117
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I like Splits' post a lot. But I think everyone would benefit GREATLY if they stop with the
"I want to be a LAG", "I am going to play a LAG style today", "I need to learn more LAG techniques"

just stop it.

Good poker players have TAG and LAG games or whatever you want to LABEL it, because they learn to recognize profitable situations:
1)I can float this guy profitable
2)This guy does not defend his blinds
3) I can 3bet wider for Value against this guy
4) That board is super scary for him, he can only continue with X
5) Everyone is a POW here, time to focus on sick fat value
etc..
Split has done a good job putting more tools in your tool box, and wrote a great manual, but everything is not a nail....
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:08 PM   #118
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
right. like a lot of new-LAGs will not think "OK...if i bet here, I am making this HUGE ass pot...but what does he really continue with if I bet it?". they just think "**** him, Im betting here and he's going to fold *bet* *call* MOTHERLASJDFLKJSDLKFJLSJF HOW DOES HE ALWAYS HAVE LKSJDFLKJASLKDFLKSAF 2 PR?!?!?!?!!"
sooo familiar with this one... I did get it (do a good extent) under control with some time (and getting fu**** cause of it) but still I try some crazy **** sometimes and I will double and triple barrel air in the silliest situations sometimes... with really nothing in mind except the thought since villain didn't raise me on a certain flop or c/c a certain card he won't stand a certain amount of future pressure.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:31 AM   #119
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I play full ring LAG (21/19/3)
it's really funny to watch the way people adjust to me
today, there was an 11/11 that 3-bet every single one of my PFRs when he was Hijack or later
It ended badly for him

Last edited by MyTurn2Raise; 12-17-2009 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:21 AM   #120
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by SammyG-SD View Post
I like Splits' post a lot. But I think everyone would benefit GREATLY if they stop with the
"I want to be a LAG", "I am going to play a LAG style today", "I need to learn more LAG techniques"

just stop it.

Good poker players have TAG and LAG games or whatever you want to LABEL it, because they learn to recognize profitable situations:
1)I can float this guy profitable
2)This guy does not defend his blinds
3) I can 3bet wider for Value against this guy
4) That board is super scary for him, he can only continue with X
5) Everyone is a POW here, time to focus on sick fat value
etc..
Split has done a good job putting more tools in your tool box, and wrote a great manual, but everything is not a nail....
so sick, I was thinking about EXACTLY the same thing today and already wondered where I should post my thoughts!

I agree 100% with sammy, all this TAG/LAG talk is imo commonly misunderstood and misinterpreted. It's not "cool" to be a LAG and guess what, if you suck at postflop poker it will only cost you money instead of winning more.
And that's exactly the core of playing poker: to win money from your opponents! If you only play in a certain way then you'll sooner or later realize that you're missing out on a lot of value due to your inability to adjust to certain player types.
That is also why only the micro forum is so delusional about being a LAG or being a TAG or whatever because at the higher stakes everyone realizes at one point that, to maximize your edge in the game and by that maximize your value, just playing a certain style all the time is not going to be enough...

/rant

P.S.: Split I hope you know that I'm not trying to put down your post, it's just a general thing...
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:48 AM   #121
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

One of my leaks is trying to play a LAG game against the wrong type of opponents. I've been working on that and trying to find out loose tables. It can be kind of aggravating not having a table bend to your will, but it's good practice for me. I've spent so much time at the nitty deep tables that I don't have the practice going against the call station fish or the spewy aggrotards. I've been working on it. It's not easy to just let your opponent bet into you three times with air when you know he 3 barrels and you've got a marginal hand. Sometimes you have to fold that AK against a call station.

But I think learning LAG play is important with the games becoming tougher. You've got to be able to outplay your better opponents and this is how to do it. By threatening committment, by bluffing scare cards, by learning to read ranges, by trying to get into your opponent's head (Ed Miller has a GREAT video on psychological hand reading on STOX)

The better we are at this, the more hands we can play against TAG opponents and the win rate goes up and the variance goes down.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:13 PM   #122
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommycee2 View Post
I actually found 4 quotes from Mpethy in the 25NL Lag thread. Most of them were defending you from people charging you were just lucky. I hope that you did not think that was my intention.

I found the video to be an excellent introduction to your COTW. I went back and watched the video again (I have it saved) and many of your moves are better understood after reading the COTW.

When Mpethy references your iso plays after checking villain's stats it goes to the heart of what I am gaining from this thread. The concepts behind playing LAG are not to play more hands and raise more aggressively with air, they are to put yourself into situations where it is difficult for the villain to continue against you. Cash money from the redline!

Everyone should take some time and re-watch the video.

Thanks again for an excellent post.
o no...i meant the long post he wrote in that thread about why a lot of the plays were valid, how much extra i made by playing the style, etc. glad you liked the vid and article =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyG-SD View Post
Split has done a good job putting more tools in your tool box, and wrote a great manual, but everything is not a nail....
thank you and agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
I play full ring LAG (21/19/3)
it's really funny to watch the way people adjust to me
today, there was an 11/11 that 3-bet every single one of my PFRs when he was Hijack or later
It ended badly for him
lol...i love when the nitTAG gets his "big boy pants" on...always makes for a fun afternoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182 View Post
/rant

P.S.: Split I hope you know that I'm not trying to put down your post, it's just a general thing...
no worries sir...like usual i respect and agree with your opinion.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:20 PM   #123
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I was thinking about the table selection Split suggests, and my days of 2NL, and I started to think of why this is so profitable (outside of the skill component). I think 2NL is so profitable because so many of the players are loose passives. So you can play 90% of the players in a similar style. By selecting the tight tables, you can again play 90% of the players the same way. Now, when you play on looser tables, you are going to have to mix it up with TAGs, NITs, LAGs, and fish - all at the same table.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:10 PM   #124
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

This thread has definitely cost me a lot of $$$ ....

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Old 12-17-2009, 04:59 PM   #125
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Yeah, I am going to be avoiding this experiment for a couple of weeks, and playing a lot nittier. Get some monies of the TAGs trying to expand their game!
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