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Old 12-14-2009, 06:33 PM   #51
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by DDNK View Post
Does LAG have to be redline-based? I seem to be able to manage a blueline LAG strat
LAG doesnt have to be red-line based. but your redline should not have the same slope as a LAG as it does as a TAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadolparah View Post
Thanks for the great post. A question I was wondering: What is your normal pfr amount? Do you change your normal raise amount when switching from TAG to LAG? Seems like it would be natural to switch from the usual 4bb+1 raise most people opt for to something like 3bb+2 at such tight tables. However, at the same time this will deplete the threshold pot size you discussed which is counter productive for postflop play.
3x+Yx is my standard. Y changes dramatically based on a wide number of factors

how would keeping the pot size a bit smaller PF counteract the threshold stuff?
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:49 PM   #52
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Considering the example of PAUL555 who doesn't like to play TPTK passed 35bb.

Preflop 4+4+1.5 = 9.5bb
flop 3/4 pot bet = 9+7.5+7.5= 24
Turn 3/4 pot bet = 24 + 18=42bb at this point he folds TPTK

Preflop 3+3+1.5 = 7.5BB
Flop 7.5+5.5+5.5= 18.5
Turn 18.5+ 14 = 32bb, so he might call another street.

Using full pot bets on both streets i guess avoids this problem, but i try to avoid cbetting a full pot amount for the amount of times it must work. I also don't want to fire a second barrel against TAG PAUL555 who called my original cbet, but i guess that is true for both situations.

I guess you're also bad if you are knowingly trying to bluff PAUL555 off TPTK with nothing but fold equity...
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:03 PM   #53
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Excellent post split.

I'm a bit confused on why you should want tight tables. I understand why tight tables are good: everybody folds and you pick up dead money. But fishy tables offer a lot of opportunity to isolate them in position. I don't play 6 max much, but when I do I tend to really lag it up and run at like 34/28 or so. The fundamentals are still same for me as when I play TAG fullring, but I do vb much thinner and 2barrell a lot more often against nitty players who are floating weaker hands as a way of adjusting to me.

25NL 6max tables are really fishy, and I like seeing lots of flops in position against fish. I know i can't win every pot, but I more often get 3 streets of value from TPWK type hands while keeping the pot small with weaker stuff.

Does this not make sense? Most good TAGS know how to widen their range to isolate the fish who keeps limping in. It doesn't mean you have to cbet every flop or 2 barrell much at all against them... if anything it gives your cbets and 2barrells more respect against the tighter players if they notice you checking back more flops and turns against the fish.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:17 PM   #54
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Great post Split.

I like the solid TAG game is a good entry to LAG. For me when I play LAG its about confidence at the table. When I feel I am have an edge post flop, I naturally have LAGish stats. This is why when I drop down levels my VPIP and PFR go way up. LAG style CAN be the most profitable for a player IF he player is good, but if they are not solid they will be a donator. I think this is where a lot of people mess up, they try to force too much action, or have bad backside aggression, or are just bad at hand reading.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:29 PM   #55
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by gadolparah View Post
Considering the example of PAUL555 who doesn't like to play TPTK passed 35bb.

Preflop 4+4+1.5 = 9.5bb
flop 3/4 pot bet = 9+7.5+7.5= 24
Turn 3/4 pot bet = 24 + 18=42bb at this point he folds TPTK

Preflop 3+3+1.5 = 7.5BB
Flop 7.5+5.5+5.5= 18.5
Turn 18.5+ 14 = 32bb, so he might call another street.

Using full pot bets on both streets i guess avoids this problem, but i try to avoid cbetting a full pot amount for the amount of times it must work. I also don't want to fire a second barrel against TAG PAUL555 who called my original cbet, but i guess that is true for both situations.

I guess you're also bad if you are knowingly trying to bluff PAUL555 off TPTK with nothing but fold equity...
i did mention that players like PAUL555 tend to roll over when you are threatening a pot that size as well. so while, yes, it may be a bit harder to create the pot size by the turn with 3x v 4x...you can still threaten it easily

in regards to the bolded part...why does that make you a bad player? if he will pretty much always fold when you create or threaten the creation of that pot size...how or why does our hand matter at all?

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Originally Posted by TheBowlBoy View Post
Excellent post split.

I'm a bit confused on why you should want tight tables. I understand why tight tables are good: everybody folds and you pick up dead money. But fishy tables offer a lot of opportunity to isolate them in position. I don't play 6 max much, but when I do I tend to really lag it up and run at like 34/28 or so. The fundamentals are still same for me as when I play TAG fullring, but I do vb much thinner and 2barrell a lot more often against nitty players who are floating weaker hands as a way of adjusting to me.

25NL 6max tables are really fishy, and I like seeing lots of flops in position against fish. I know i can't win every pot, but I more often get 3 streets of value from TPWK type hands while keeping the pot small with weaker stuff.

Does this not make sense? Most good TAGS know how to widen their range to isolate the fish who keeps limping in. It doesn't mean you have to cbet every flop or 2 barrell much at all against them... if anything it gives your cbets and 2barrells more respect against the tighter players if they notice you checking back more flops and turns against the fish.
this article is about playing LAG...not about playing a widened up TAG range. my point against playing looser tables is they dont offer folds (PF or later really), and because of that, you are forced to have playable hands. The LAG play i wrote about is more focused on us being able to have air 95% of the time =)
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:46 PM   #56
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by imfromsweden View Post
This is very well written! Wish I had this when I first started out playing LAG. (I failed miserably because I opened more hands, but played the same game postflop as I did with a TAG-style. Doesn't work, as you avg. hand strength is gonna be so much weaker. You need to become more aggresive.)
That makes no sense at all. If your range is wider and opponents are paying attention then postflop you need to bluff with less of your range, and if your opponents aren't paying attention you should be bluffing a lot either way. Basically it sounds like you weren't playing the TAG style optimally and playing LAG just exposed that weakness.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:11 PM   #57
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Some last minute notes on getting into LAG play. Some stats will change dramatically from TAG to LAG. Your VPIP and PFR will of course get looser and higher. You will notice your flopCB% will drop. If you were CBing 80% of the time as a LAG you would get killed in the longrun. Remember, people adjust to a certain extent, especially while the pot is smaller. So they will call your CB's a little more liberally on certain board textures. You will also notice that your fold23b% will drop as well. You are stealing more, and it is important that you learn how to defend better when you get 3b. This will be my a mixture of 4b-ing, flatting and using position, and/or leaving the table.
This is absolute gold. It took me a while to figure this during the TAG-->sLAG-->LAG transition.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:30 AM   #58
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Thanks, great article. I've been looking forward to this from you.

Since I've moved up to NL50 I've been loosening up a lot without even really thinking about it. I was running 12/9 all my poker life but the past few weeks I've been like 17/14. A (bad)reg even stacked off with A8o vs. my AK preflop BvB today lol

Your article pretty much sums up all of the stuff I've been trying to figure out. Thanks again.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:32 AM   #59
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

*Split* i seriously love everything you post and especially your vids. this post is great man, ive been cultivating my inner LAG for a while now and i feel like im just starting to grasp it well, thank you for helping with that!
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:12 AM   #60
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

The positional heatmap is gold.

What people learn out of this is that a LAG does not necessarily play more hands from EP than a TAG. This is very, very important.

Your COTW are incredible good, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:32 AM   #61
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Finally!!!! A CotW that will help my bottomline......and maybe not the way you think.
I laughed.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:44 AM   #62
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Great Post! Very thought provoking!

My question is how does one defend against suck a LAG? Being slightly LAGish, my first instinct would be to float them a bit more. Give them the rope that is needed hang themselves. Bad LAGs will not only tie the noose but put it around their neck while tightening. If they are thinking, then they will adjust. Once this happens, you can begin 3betting them a bit more either as a bluff or value. Do you have any further input? Also what range in what pos do you use when you are lagging it up?
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:01 AM   #63
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

very nice post
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:31 AM   #64
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Split u tha man

Great post
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:06 AM   #65
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by zachvac View Post
That makes no sense at all. If your range is wider and opponents are paying attention then postflop you need to bluff with less of your range, and if your opponents aren't paying attention you should be bluffing a lot either way. Basically it sounds like you weren't playing the TAG style optimally and playing LAG just exposed that weakness.
hmm yeah you might have a point... I was quite bad at the time.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:12 AM   #66
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by Fly-fisher View Post
This is absolute gold. It took me a while to figure this during the TAG-->sLAG-->LAG transition.
thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Thanks, great article. I've been looking forward to this from you.

Since I've moved up to NL50 I've been loosening up a lot without even really thinking about it. I was running 12/9 all my poker life but the past few weeks I've been like 17/14. A (bad)reg even stacked off with A8o vs. my AK preflop BvB today lol

Your article pretty much sums up all of the stuff I've been trying to figure out. Thanks again.
glad you enjoyed it!

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Originally Posted by OoLethaLoO View Post
*Split* i seriously love everything you post and especially your vids. this post is great man, ive been cultivating my inner LAG for a while now and i feel like im just starting to grasp it well, thank you for helping with that!
no problem...thanks for liking my stuff =)

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Originally Posted by DiggaWasgeht? View Post
The positional heatmap is gold.

What people learn out of this is that a LAG does not necessarily play more hands from EP than a TAG. This is very, very important.

Your COTW are incredible good, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge.
def agree on the importance of that misconception. glad you enjoyed it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phebous View Post
Great Post! Very thought provoking!

My question is how does one defend against suck a LAG? Being slightly LAGish, my first instinct would be to float them a bit more. Give them the rope that is needed hang themselves. Bad LAGs will not only tie the noose but put it around their neck while tightening. If they are thinking, then they will adjust. Once this happens, you can begin 3betting them a bit more either as a bluff or value. Do you have any further input? Also what range in what pos do you use when you are lagging it up?
there are lots of ways...but i am not going to give you a playbook to play against me =)

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very nice post
thnk you sir

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Split u tha man

Great post
thnk you...you are too =)
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #67
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by *Split* View Post

also, i play LAG so i do not HAVE TO hit hands. a TAG strategy is based around IO. today's games offer less IO imo. Yes it is super profitable when you hit a big hand against a fish, or when you hit a good-side cooler against a TAG...but these are few and far between and there are lots of profitable opportunities in the middle
How do you view double and triple barreling turn and river when you have A high or a MPGK in position. Do you shut down after making the cbet, or do you continue showing strength.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:31 PM   #68
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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How do you view double and triple barreling turn and river when you have A high or a MPGK in position. Do you shut down after making the cbet, or do you continue showing strength.
super dependent on the player type im against, how they tend to continue, and how their range changes based on pot geometry. (aka, not nearly enough info for me to be able to give you a worthwhile answer =) )
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:31 PM   #69
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Originally Posted by *Split* View Post

i would say martin is NOT a LAG. in the last screen shot i saw his stats were 20/13. i would say he has the "L" part of LAG right...but he forgot the whole "AG" thing. And LAG will ruin those with leaks in their postflop game...as i mentioned a few times in the article. Martin has leaks, martin will sink. (no offense Martin =( )

And yes, most LAG's fail because they overdo the "AG" part and forget to think about their opponent's ranges and c-ranges while making plays...and go for value so think it is -EV


This is my stats from last session.I was trying really focus on the "AG" party what you mentioned...

I know I have still leaks postflop and dont valuebet my big hands strong enough...
Its still a little gap between my VIP and PFR there..
Maybe I can push it to 18 PFR but I really have to focus on that and its not more autopilot like TAG...

My stealnumber was 7% higher than usually and I was playing 35% hands from BTN..

Last edited by MartinK1979; 12-15-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #70
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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there are lots of ways...but i am not going to give you a playbook to play against me =)
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #71
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I don't understand why you are trying to work on becoming LAG martin, when your TAG game has leaks in it? Playing a Lag style is just going to focus more on those leaks, and you are going to bleed money.

Good post Splt, well done as always.
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:13 PM   #72
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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ill give you a hint...good LAGs have thresholds as well

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Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
I don't understand why you are trying to work on becoming LAG martin, when your TAG game has leaks in it? Playing a Lag style is just going to focus more on those leaks, and you are going to bleed money.

Good post Splt, well done as always.
+1, and thank you sir =)
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:11 PM   #73
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Split,
Great post. Enjoyed it and liked your sound reasoning. Well done sir.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:17 PM   #74
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

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Split,
Great post. Enjoyed it and liked your sound reasoning. Well done sir.
wtf is this? no insults? no PTR screenshots? this is madness =)

glad you enjoyed it sir
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:23 PM   #75
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Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

split do u also play 6max/HU nowadays?
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