Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to 1/2 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-14-2009, 09:36 AM   #1
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
COTW: Becoming A LAG

One of the bigger things I get when I work with people is the consideration of breaking into LAG play. LAG play, for those unaware, is notation for a “loose aggressive” player. There are tremendous differences between TAG and LAG players, but the common misconceptions of LAG players are what make it, in my opinion, the most profitable style in today's micro games.

So other than the textbook definition, what is a LAG? A LAG is simply a TAG on steroids. A LAG plays more hands, they play them more aggressive, and because of this, must be solid on more levels. It is important to emphasize this...because LAG play is NOT for everyone. If you do not have your fundamentals down, if you do not understand most spots you get into, if you cannot quickly come up with an optimal, or near-optimal, line...then LAG is not for you. If you are not a winning TAG player, there is no chance you will be a successful LAG. A LAG is a solid player that understands situations, adjustments, and the 'secret' ingredient that makes him successful, well-timed pressure.

Pressure is why this style is successful. When talking about pressure, it is important to note that the most amount of pressure can be placed while in position. Just the threat of putting a bet out makes most opponents play differently against us (us will now refer to LAGs), and usually in a more passive way. Because of that, LAGs will focus, even more heavily than a TAG does, on positional play. Everything is based on position to a LAG. Here is a positional heatmap by position by player type:


(the darker the color = the more hands played)

You see LAGs focus everything on LP play, with heavy emphasis in the CO and button. This doesn't vary at all from TAGs, as TAGs are very positionally aware and ramp up how many hands they play as they get closer to the button. But LAGs take this a step further and start adding more hands a bit sooner, and also add even more hands from the CO and button. A TAG might only steal 35%, while a LAG is constantly focused on pressuring every edge and may be stealing around 60%. This is your first step in transitioning to a LAG...you don't just randomly jump from 13/11 to 20/18...you ease into it and get used to playing more hands, adding initially on the button, then the CO, then the HJ, etc.

The second part about pressure is actually why this style is so successful now a days, and even more so, at the micros. This is because the average player is better, and now understands not to make 200bb pots with 2nd pair...they understand folding in the SB and not over defending and getting into tough spots OOP...they understand not getting involved in too large a pot with single pairs. It is that same knowledge that allows LAGs to thrive. If players are folding at a certain threshold, then all a LAG player needs to do is pressure to that exact threshold to get folds. A LAG operates successfully in a fold-rich environment...and today's games (where the tables have about 70% of people per table with a vpip of 15% or less) are perfect for it given the “standard threshold” players share.

Talking about players for a moment...let's cover which tables are best. If you are playing 25% of your hands, and raising almost all of them...which tables do you think you are going to the best at? One where lots of pots are going multi-way? Or a table where lots of pots are going HU? Of course you would want the HU pots table. In a MW pot you are forced to have hands, and forced to hit hands in order to profit. In a HU pot you can apply more pressure, win with no hand, and get involved more often. Because of this you want tighter tables. I know many players that don't play during the day-time because the games are filled with nitRegs and 24 tabling HUDbots...but why is this bad? If those players are just going to set-mine and thus fold 85% of the time postflop, why not take advantage of that? If they are going to play super face-up...why not abuse them for that? I prefer very tight tables when I am LAGing...something like 5%-15% table vpip and no real pressure spots.

Having other pressure spots on your table will make your LAG life hell. These pressure spots are people who don't just roll over and play dead postflop, good shortstackers, and aggressive 3b'rs. Why? Good shortstackers will adjust and reship on you often preflop, esp when you steal against them. They get enough folds from your range if you have a 60% ATS (your O-range is 60% of hands, your C-range is like 10% of hands, so they get folds 83% of the time and make mega-profit from you). The aggressive 3b'rs will ruin your flow at the table, show other people that you aren't invincible (which then creates a table dynamic where even 12/10 nitTAGs are trying to 3ball you), and put you in tough spots. The other player type will just float you often postflop (either in a value or float/bluff way) and will not just roll over to your aggression. Remember, a LAG operates best in a fold-rich environment...if a table isn't giving that to you, then get off it and find any of another 400 tables that will.

One of the things that helped me play LAG was looking into my TAG game. I found the situations that made me shudder while playing TAG. If I faced a raise on a certain board, and hated life because of it, I noted it. If I hated certain turn cards, I noted it. While transitioning into a LAG I took all of these spots that made TAG-me shudder...and applied them. If I as a TAG, say 13/12, hated a certain spot...why wouldn't 90% of other TAGs feel the same way? This helped give me a framework for looking at pressure situations and learning how to explore new ones while implementing them into my own game.

* * * * * *

I've mentioned a few times that fundamentals are way more important while playing LAG. In saying that, it should also be noted that your misunderstandings will be amplified, as the situation will arise more often. So if you CB poorly, then seeing that spot more often is going to burn you more money. If you don't double barrel well, then you are going to be less profitable postflop. Again, if you cannot play a TAG style well, then adding more spots postflop is just going to murder your WR.

Let's talk about postflop for a minute. There are some very important things to consider when moving into LAG play and playing more than just a preflop game. We already talked about where to add more hands when playing LAG (LP) and we do that in an effort to steal more preflop and also set ourselves up to be in position for postflop decisions. Of course, unless we are on the button, we will not always be in position...but poker is all about taking high probability set ups...so do your best to get that button.

The big thing I suggest to people is playing LAG preflop and TAG postflop. A TAG game postflop should be very solid at CB-ing, have a decent handle on dubbing, and should understand VB-ing well. A lot of people think that LAG play means you have to play like a damn nutball postflop...running complex bluffs, VB-ing 3rd pair, and mastering the over-bet shove. This is pure poppycock, and again, another reason why people play poorly against LAGs. Keep your standard postflop game while LAGing, but pay more attention to pressure.

It should go without saying that your range postflop will be inherently weaker. If you are playing 40% of hands from the button, you will not be hitting stronger hands very often. Your most standard hand strength will be air, then weak 1 pairs...so you have to be able to play these hands well. It should also be noted that your value hands should actually get paid a bit better, but not in a crazy way. It is more standard that if you run LAG in 6max that you can get crazy value with something like KJ on a K6344 board from any pair....but in FR, people still maintain their hand strength thresholds. What I mean by this is that people have an ingrained threshold of pot size per hand strength. They understand that they want to make AI pots with nut hands, maybe 40bb pots with 1pair, maybe 90bb with 2pr on scary boards, etc (these are just random numbers...the real numbers are different and change by player type).

These thresholds are actually what allow LAGs to have easy lives postflop. Once a LAG understands where a players threshold is with TP, then postflop is a breeze. Say we are playing against PAUL555, and PAUL555 doesn't make a pot bigger than 35bb with TPTK. This means, as a LAG, we are focused on making, or threatening, a 36bb pot everytime we bluff. Why should we make a 40bb pot? Or threaten a 55bb pot if we only need the pot size to be/look like 36bb? Exposure is very important while LAGing...it is important while bluffing to look like you are exposing a large part of your stack and creating or threatening a large pot. A big leak of new LAGs is that they over expose themselves and would make a 65bb pot against PAUL555 as a bluff, when that is just too large and a waste of time and money. Pay attention to your exposure through your betsizing and planning of the hand, and exploit a players threshold to apply correct pressure.

* * * * * *

Common misconceptions:

People hear loose and assume bad, they hear tight and assume good. Do not confuse a LAG with a spewy loose player. A LAG is a finely tuned machine that understands pressure, position, and adjustment...a fish is a player that is too loose and doesn't have an off switch. It is actually this misconception that helps LAGs make money. People will call your 3b's OOP with hands like AJ and 44 because they think you are crazy and that you are going to spew a stack if they hit. Remember this...it is important.

People also assume your PF range is wider than it is, especially from EP. Look back to the heatmap...do you see a high concentration of hands being played from EP? Be aware of position, don't put yourself OOP if you can help it.

People also assume that you do not adjust. They think if you have an ATS of 80% over the first 30 hands at the table that you will remain that way the entire session. If the table starts approaching you differently, it is time to change what you are doing. You can do this by tightening up and letting your image play for you, by out aggressing, or by leaving the table.

* * * * * *

Some last minute notes on getting into LAG play. Some stats will change dramatically from TAG to LAG. Your VPIP and PFR will of course get looser and higher. You will notice your flopCB% will drop. If you were CBing 80% of the time as a LAG you would get killed in the longrun. Remember, people adjust to a certain extent, especially while the pot is smaller. So they will call your CB's a little more liberally on certain board textures. You will also notice that your fold23b% will drop as well. You are stealing more, and it is important that you learn how to defend better when you get 3b. This will be my a mixture of 4b-ing, flatting and using position, and/or leaving the table.

I cannot stress enough how important position is. I've seen countless players try to get into LAG and they start by raising 22+/ATB/someSC from EP and go nuttier from there. They try to call a bunch of raises with SCs/SGs/Ax hands. These are people that are missing the big picture. Set yourself up for good profitable spots preflop, and we do that by using position with good playable hands or using spots where we can grab position.

Do not make mistakes! Easier said than done, but if you are making mistakes, your WR is going to suffer quickly. Because these spots show up so much more often, it is imperative that you either have few/no mistakes...or that you are very quick at finding and patching them. You will make less mistakes if you focus on position, VB-ing well, thinking through ranges, and exposure. LAG is still super simple poker because it is still poker. You just play a few more hands, apply a little more pressure, and make a little more money.

Good luck getting into LAG. Like usual, this is a guide and more of a “here are things to think about” rather than “here are the exact ranges and exact plays to use”. I apologize for those that will read this and hate that I didn't make charts and such...but I assure you...put in some hours and you will grow a ton more from it. Best of luck on the tables, and stay off mine =)

Cliff Notes:

1.) learn to be a solid TAG before you start playing LAG
2.) position is 90x more important
3.) look for spots to apply pressure
4.) evaluate and adjust always
5.) leave the table if conditions become less ideal

(for those interested, I made a video showing a little of this style <link>...Enjoy!)

*SS*
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 09:47 AM   #2
PokerRon247
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
PokerRon247's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Running up a mountain
Posts: 11,172
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Excellent post as always Split.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
One of the things that helped me play LAG was looking into my TAG game. I found the situations that made me shudder while playing TAG. If I faced a raise on a certain board, and hated life because of it, I noted it. If I hated certain turn cards, I noted it. While transitioning into a LAG I took all of these spots that made TAG-me shudder...and applied them. If I as a TAG, say 13/12, hated a certain spot...why wouldn't 90% of other TAGs feel the same way? This helped give me a framework for looking at pressure situations and learning how to explore new ones while implementing them into my own game.
This is absolute gold. Putting yourself in your opponents shoes is a fantastic way of improving your game. Think about the spots you hate being in yourself, and put your opponents in those spots instead.
PokerRon247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:21 AM   #3
BigOlPapaBear
enthusiast
 
BigOlPapaBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 62
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Great post. Love the positional "heat map" - I look at villains' positional stats to try and gauge what level they're thinking at eg a 16/12 who's got no positional bias vs one who's 6/6 EP, 14/11 MP & 28/26 LP. Same overall VPIP/PFR but completely different villains.
BigOlPapaBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:22 AM   #4
kb coolman
Pooh-Bah
 
kb coolman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: must...not...feed...trolls
Posts: 5,452
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Put myself in my opponents shoes? I thought I just needed to know what my cards were. Why do I care what the other guy has?

Awesome post. I've had mixed success lagging it up, but this paragraph really clarified some things for me:

Quote:
Having other pressure spots on your table will make your LAG life hell. These pressure spots are people who don't just roll over and play dead postflop, good shortstackers, and aggressive 3b'rs. Why? Good shortstackers will adjust and reship on you often preflop, esp when you steal against them. They get enough folds from your range if you have a 60% ATS (your O-range is 60% of hands, your C-range is like 10% of hands, so they get folds 83% of the time and make mega-profit from you). The aggressive 3b'rs will ruin your flow at the table, show other people that you aren't invincible (which then creates a table dynamic where even 12/10 nitTAGs are trying to 3ball you), and put you in tough spots. The other player type will just float you often postflop (either in a value or float/bluff way) and will not just roll over to your aggression. Remember, a LAG operates best in a fold-rich environment...if a table isn't giving that to you, then get off it and find any of another 400 tables that will.
Fantastic COTW, Split. Maybe the best one yet.
kb coolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:28 AM   #5
Dude-Bun
grinder
 
Dude-Bun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 1 tabling life
Posts: 619
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Great read!

Def. a few things to think about. I actually sat down with u split the other day at 50nl (prob 2-3 weeks ago or so) and I was real excited cause I've recognized your sn/avatar from the 25nl lag video but u finished ur session like 10-15mins after I sat down so I was a lil bummed but I hope I'll still get a chance to play u in the future

What's your regular game nowadays?
Dude-Bun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:45 AM   #6
angry_man
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,108
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Is LAG *really* the most profitable style? In a BB/100 sense, OK, I can easily see that, but $/hr? Unless you're comfortably multitabling at the site cap already, then getting involved in more hands and facing tougher spots is going to reduce the number of tables you're playing.

Sort of related (but also a standalone point) - it seems like many people want to be LAG without much of a reason beyond bragging rights and a vague notion that the best players are LAGs. Well, maybe they are, but it doesn't automatically follow that it will be the optimal style for you as an individual (as mentioned in OP). I think some people would be well served putting some thought into the *why?* before they start worrying about the *how?*.
angry_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 10:49 AM   #7
jessyj
banned
 
jessyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: you want some grapes? bitch.
Posts: 1,860
Exclamation Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerRon247 View Post
This is absolute gold. Putting yourself in your opponents shoes is a fantastic way of improving your game. Think about the spots you hate being in yourself, and put your opponents in those spots instead.
This is just logical and smart poker and has nothing to do with being a "lag". No offense Split, I liked your post .
jessyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:05 AM   #8
isacivic
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 133
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I watched your video a few weeks back, you're such a donk! Showed it to some friends, ruined their game.

Reading this along with everything said in the video has improved my TAG game IMMENSELY. My red/blue line no longer looks like a crocodile, and the red is almost positive when I'm playing at looser tables. I tried playing tight tables as a LAG and won a few sessions but lost a few from not adjusting to 3bettors. Last few sessions I've won over 2/3rds of my money from the button/CO. Limpers are my new favorite thing, as are TAGfish. I love it when a TAG limps...especially one that always calls my 7BB raises.

Playing HU improved my post-flop game a lot too, as did learning player types and watching people. I feel learning to profitably play HU is the biggest turning point in my LAG career.

edit: Also, post your redline! I want to see what happens when I master this.

edit2: I've never considered trying to LAG during daytime hours - aren't most TAGs table selecting by %SF? Thusly, wouldn't the fishiest tags/HUDbots be at these tables? I can't imagine 10NLers+ not table selecting JUST A BIT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_man View Post
Is LAG *really* the most profitable style? In a BB/100 sense, OK, I can easily see that, but $/hr? Unless you're comfortably multitabling at the site cap already, then getting involved in more hands and facing tougher spots is going to reduce the number of tables you're playing.

Sort of related (but also a standalone point) - it seems like many people want to be LAG without much of a reason beyond bragging rights and a vague notion that the best players are LAGs. Well, maybe they are, but it doesn't automatically follow that it will be the optimal style for you as an individual (as mentioned in OP). I think some people would be well served putting some thought into the *why?* before they start worrying about the *how?*.
Theoretically, if you play more hands, you'll win more pots, and win more money. The biggest advantage you can have against another player in winning a pot isn't necessarily your hand, but position. Who says LAGs have to stop playing good hands that would win money as a TAG? If people pay attention to table image, they'll respect your raises less, and you'll get paid off better on your real hands, too. I guess you can argue you'd be playing less tables as a LAG because it requires so much more thinking. I believe split claimed he can profitably LAG 6-8? tables, but he's had students who could multi table much more fluently.

Last edited by isacivic; 12-14-2009 at 11:18 AM.
isacivic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:06 AM   #9
King Spew
Antici
 
King Spew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: pation
Posts: 11,869
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Finally!!!! A CotW that will help my bottomline......and maybe not the way you think.
King Spew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:25 AM   #10
jessyj
banned
 
jessyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: you want some grapes? bitch.
Posts: 1,860
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Finally!!!! A CotW that will help my bottomline......and maybe not the way you think.
jessyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:34 AM   #11
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerRon247 View Post
Excellent post as always Split.



This is absolute gold. Putting yourself in your opponents shoes is a fantastic way of improving your game. Think about the spots you hate being in yourself, and put your opponents in those spots instead.
thank you sir =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigOlPapaBear View Post
Great post. Love the positional "heat map" - I look at villains' positional stats to try and gauge what level they're thinking at eg a 16/12 who's got no positional bias vs one who's 6/6 EP, 14/11 MP & 28/26 LP. Same overall VPIP/PFR but completely different villains.
thanx...i thought the heat map might help the visualization a lil bit

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb coolman View Post
Fantastic COTW, Split. Maybe the best one yet.
thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude-Bun View Post
Great read!

Def. a few things to think about. I actually sat down with u split the other day at 50nl (prob 2-3 weeks ago or so) and I was real excited cause I've recognized your sn/avatar from the 25nl lag video but u finished ur session like 10-15mins after I sat down so I was a lil bummed but I hope I'll still get a chance to play u in the future

What's your regular game nowadays?
thanks. actually saw u during that session as well and expected you to eff with me a lil bit (though sadly, you did not). I play 50NL when I play online. Ive done my 500K+ hands at 100NL+...but got to the point where I realized that I hate $1K swings...as they make me very angry IRL. I realized that as a pro protecting your metal is 90% of the game...so I have no $1K swings ever at 50NL, make a solid hourly, and don't get angry all that much. works for me =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_man View Post
Is LAG *really* the most profitable style? In a BB/100 sense, OK, I can easily see that, but $/hr? Unless you're comfortably multitabling at the site cap already, then getting involved in more hands and facing tougher spots is going to reduce the number of tables you're playing.

Sort of related (but also a standalone point) - it seems like many people want to be LAG without much of a reason beyond bragging rights and a vague notion that the best players are LAGs. Well, maybe they are, but it doesn't automatically follow that it will be the optimal style for you as an individual (as mentioned in OP). I think some people would be well served putting some thought into the *why?* before they start worrying about the *how?*.
it is the most profitable style in a PTbb/100 way, yes. as far as "best hourly"...maybe/maybe-not...I do this style playing 9 tables. I found that 12 tables didnt work well for me as I need the extra time to think and really check spots. The most important thing about LAG, imo, is that it forces growth. there is minimal growth as a player imo as a TAG, and almost none as a nit...this style forces you to think

of course you should think about the "why"...I think I've made that my grand thesis in almost every post I've ever made, and anyone who has ever talked to me for more than 30 seconds will vouch for me on this...but everything revolves around the "why"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessyj View Post
No offense Split, I liked your post .
None taken. omgomgomg a girl liked my post!!! (unless this is Chargers posting under this accnt, which, I will take a guess and say it is not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isacivic View Post
I watched your video a few weeks back, you're such a donk! Showed it to some friends, ruined their game.

Reading this along with everything said in the video has improved my TAG game IMMENSELY. My red/blue line no longer looks like a crocodile, and the red is almost positive when I'm playing at looser tables. I tried playing tight tables as a LAG and won a few sessions but lost a few from not adjusting to 3bettors. Last few sessions I've won over 2/3rds of my money from the button/CO. Limpers are my new favorite thing, as are TAGfish. I love it when a TAG limps...especially one that always calls my 7BB raises.


edit: Also, post your redline! I want to see what happens when I master this.

edit2: I've never considered trying to LAG during daytime hours - aren't most TAGs table selecting by %SF? Thusly, wouldn't the fishiest tags/HUDbots be at these tables? I can't imagine 10NLers+ not table selecting JUST A BIT.
.
glad my vid helped you out...sorry about your friends though, lol

I may post my redline at some point. though its all over the place from a failed experiment at running 12/10

I think most TAGs are just looking to get on a lot of tables and try to cooler eachother. and lots of time they will get on a table with 20% players/flop...and never check the table 15 minutes later when it drops down to 7% players/flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Finally!!!! A CotW that will help my bottomline......and maybe not the way you think.
lol...
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:38 AM   #12
jessyj
banned
 
jessyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: you want some grapes? bitch.
Posts: 1,860
Lightbulb Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
None taken. omgomgomg a girl liked my post!!! (unless this is Chargers posting under this accnt, which, I will take a guess and say it is not)
your guess is not good.

Last edited by jessyj; 12-14-2009 at 11:39 AM. Reason: centurion
jessyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:40 AM   #13
basalo
centurion
 
basalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 144
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

THE BEST COTW EVER
basalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:44 AM   #14
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessyj View Post
your guess is not good.
well chargers hates me...so i am sticking with my original guess =)

and thnx basalo =)
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:53 AM   #15
I vi ii V7
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
I vi ii V7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Aiming for 100% fold to 3b
Posts: 9,998
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post
Finally!!!! A CotW that will help my bottomline......and maybe not the way you think.
Haha that thought crossed my mind too.

Split I like the point about thinking about spots that, as a TAG, make me uncomfortable, and how I, as a thinking TAG, can put other TAGs in similar spots.

With playing TAG, the goal is to get paid off on IO hands and win big pots at SD. And sometimes use your tight image to steal pots. What is the goal with playing LAG? Get more folds postflop and have higher NSD$? Or use your image to get paid off more thinly? Or sort of both?
I vi ii V7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 11:54 AM   #16
isacivic
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 133
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
glad my vid helped you out...sorry about your friends though, lol

I may post my redline at some point. though its all over the place from a failed experiment at running 12/10

I think most TAGs are just looking to get on a lot of tables and try to cooler eachother. and lots of time they will get on a table with 20% players/flop...and never check the table 15 minutes later when it drops down to 7% players/flop
Post a sample of a session without values for the Y axis It'd just be interesting to see where you red line is in relation to your blue. Don't want to call you out, and it's not going to help my play at all, just want some inspiration/goal.

Interesting insight about the table selection, it's just so hard to avoid high player/flop%s during daytime hours when I can table select so easily.

Also, do you play 6max at all? I'm guessing everything you've said in this thread are fundamentals there.
isacivic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:04 PM   #17
Dude-Bun
grinder
 
Dude-Bun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 1 tabling life
Posts: 619
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post


thanks. actually saw u during that session as well and expected you to eff with me a lil bit (though sadly, you did not). I play 50NL when I play online. Ive done my 500K+ hands at 100NL+...but got to the point where I realized that I hate $1K swings...as they make me very angry IRL. I realized that as a pro protecting your metal is 90% of the game...so I have no $1K swings ever at 50NL, make a solid hourly, and don't get angry all that much. works for me =)

lol I was really looking to get into spots with u as well but I have a habit of playing tight for the first 10mins or so just to get my mind set and u left pretty quickly. well, there'll be next time I hope
Dude-Bun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:10 PM   #18
rwh53
adept
 
rwh53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: LIFE is RIGGED
Posts: 753
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Learning how to play postflop helped my TAG game....now I gotta learn this too???

Good stuff, it's nice to not have to re-create the wheel and learn from others who have been there and done it. Still nothing like losing a coule of buy-ins to teach a lesson that HOLDS though.
rwh53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:21 PM   #19
mirrari
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 199
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

reading now. Thanks for the great information!
mirrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:22 PM   #20
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by I vi ii V7 View Post
Split I like the point about thinking about spots that, as a TAG, make me uncomfortable, and how I, as a thinking TAG, can put other TAGs in similar spots.

With playing TAG, the goal is to get paid off on IO hands and win big pots at SD. And sometimes use your tight image to steal pots. What is the goal with playing LAG? Get more folds postflop and have higher NSD$? Or use your image to get paid off more thinly? Or sort of both?
The goal is to use pressure to steal more hands pf, and set yourself up to your postflop advantage to get more value per hand played

Quote:
Originally Posted by isacivic View Post
Post a sample of a session without values for the Y axis It'd just be interesting to see where you red line is in relation to your blue. Don't want to call you out, and it's not going to help my play at all, just want some inspiration/goal.

Interesting insight about the table selection, it's just so hard to avoid high player/flop%s during daytime hours when I can table select so easily.

Also, do you play 6max at all? I'm guessing everything you've said in this thread are fundamentals there.


I used to play 6max...i just dont enjoy it as much. LAG works really well at FR because of the ingrained understanding of folding and "TP = a smaller type hand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude-Bun View Post
lol I was really looking to get into spots with u as well but I have a habit of playing tight for the first 10mins or so just to get my mind set and u left pretty quickly. well, there'll be next time I hope
Im sure we will play again =P

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwh53 View Post
Learning how to play postflop helped my TAG game....now I gotta learn this too???

Good stuff, it's nice to not have to re-create the wheel and learn from others who have been there and done it. Still nothing like losing a coule of buy-ins to teach a lesson that HOLDS though.
You dont have to learn this...its just another way of playing. And if you are losing lots of BI's (and by this i mean stacks/hand) doing this then you are doing it wrong =)
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:27 PM   #21
isacivic
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 133
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

That's very impressive for 1k hands; it's funny you can pretty much count your showdowns. Amazing you can get into your groove so fast.
isacivic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:31 PM   #22
angry_man
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,108
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

I'm a bit confused about *deliberately* seeking out the low players to flop tables. You can exploit the TAGs, but surely it's still always going to be far more profitable to exploit the drooler fish, especially if you have the postflop skills to play LAG in the first place?

If you deliberately seek out 5-15% players to flop tables, you're seriously cutting down on the number of 50+ VPIP opponents you'll see.
angry_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:32 PM   #23
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by isacivic View Post
That's very impressive for 1k hands; it's funny you can pretty much count your showdowns. Amazing you can get into your groove so fast.
it is an exaggerated session...but you get the idea. yea, won 2BI in SD, won 2 1/2stacks, and thats pretty much it...rest is all redline dollars. (though I'm pretty sure my 3b% was 12% this session with a 4b% of 20%, lol)

poker is quite repetitive once you stop thinking of things as "omg I have AK against a 14/12 on this A95 board" and start thinking of things as "I have TP against a standard TAG and my plan is X with a randomizer line of Y" You get your groove faster as you play more hands =)
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:33 PM   #24
*Split*
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,261
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_man View Post
I'm a bit confused about *deliberately* seeking out the low players to flop tables. You can exploit the TAGs, but surely it's still always going to be far more profitable to exploit the drooler fish, especially if you have the postflop skills to play LAG in the first place?

If you deliberately seek out 5-15% players to flop tables, you're seriously cutting down on the number of 50+ VPIP opponents you'll see.
this is the standard argument, yes. But if you play at a table with a fish, you are not getting folds, and thus are not really playing LAG. yea, you might play a few extra hands IP, but you are still playing TAG at that point.

seeking out the low players/flop = insanely low variance and a nice WR
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 12:40 PM   #25
MartinK1979
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,275
Re: COTW: Becoming A LAG

So maybe I should learn first TAG before I go Laggy and confused....

tx for your post Split!
MartinK1979 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online