Woops, makes sense now.
Thanks

Great post!

Nothing to add really, seems you've covered most of it

In regards to bet sizing, to deny correct odds against a field I see we need to raise more then 4xBB +1 for each limper, does this hold true for our weaker hands, or purely steal hands say Q5s, because the bigger raise will do the same as we intend with a strong hand (limit the field) and increase our chance of taking the pot down pre...and clearly hero wouldn't be raising trash against villains who will call too light, so this shouldn't be a problem.

Just wondering about balancing our range, is this mostly understanding the frequency of trash vs value hands we can get away with here.

Thanks.

Get Stox and watch Splits video on bet sizing. He nails it there.

Is that the equity exploration video?

Is there a forum for stoxEV? I downloaded it but it says my trial is up despite never using it before.

Thanks.

no, its one of his coaching videos on stox.

For those without stox, the master sticky is your friend.

Splits Betsizing Pooh Bah Post

Thanks everyone! I really enjoyed doing this.

I'm looking forward to the coming CoWs myself. But I'll be watching this thread if anyone has any more questions.

Peace.

I'm really busy with college right now but this thread makes me want the big assignments and tests too be over even sooner, like SO bad

great CotW Kurt

I really think I have learnt a lot from this thread. I could not see myself playing this way before I read it. Can anyone check that my play in hand 1 and hand 2 (particularly postflop are OK?)

HAND 1, standard?

Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players

UTG: $10.14
UTG+1: $2.00
MP: $16.77
CO: $3.48
Hero (BTN): $4.84
SB: $6.20
BB: $1.00

UTG+1 posts a big blind ($0.02)

Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero is BTN with K T
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 checks, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.16, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.14, 1 fold, MP calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.53) Q T 4 (3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG folds, MP folds

Hand 2, post flop is raise or fold, right?


Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): $4.97
BTN: $6.14
SB: $2.98
BB: $8.09
UTG: $7.15
UTG+1: $1.04
MP1: $5.00
MP2: $2.05

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with J A
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, 1 fold, SB calls $0.11, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.28) 9 2 J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.26, SB raises to $0.76, Hero raises to $1.82...

Thanks for the post, these CotW posts are VERY good.

Sorry guys I don't mean to post every hand I get but one more that I think may be a massive SPEW when I totally fail to isolate...

Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players

Hero (BB): $4.93
UTG: $3.44
UTG+1: $0.78
MP: $0.83
CO: $2.00
BTN: $5.00
SB: $3.30

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with A Q
2 folds, MP raises to $0.04, CO calls $0.04, 1 fold, SB calls $0.03, Hero raises to $0.16, MP calls $0.12, CO calls $0.12, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.52) 3 3 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.34...

Mik1w,

First hand is standard.

The second is totally player dependent... against a weak nit you can fold to his raise, and against an agro spewey player you're fine to get it in here.

Now I know I said to always cbet when you isolate, but hand 3 might be an exception. I'll still cbet it sometimes, but the thing is, with flops like this it makes EVERY hand look great. Someone setmining with 44 or 66 or whatever might think you have 2 big cards and missed, and might want to start calling. Plus you're out of position. If there's a hand to give up without a cbet its one like this. Even still, I don't think its horrible or anything to cbet here.

I'm glad the article was useful.

Thanks. I'm now trying this regularly, though my main issue has become when to do it. I'm currently only doing it with certain premium hands, and maybe good aces or kings when most people in front have folded.

Is this the way it should stay do you think? Or maybe worth trying it with not so premium hands if I am sure I have position?

In the right situation I will isolate limpers with ATC. It can definitely be taken too far, though. (As a LAG, BU was my losingest position, lol.) Experiment and see what works for you.

I'm talking about this CoW in lots of threads so...


BUMP!

Noob question.....why are the raises to isolate so large? Why not just standard 4bb + 1 for each raiser? Or am I missing something........?

It just seems like if I changed the amount I raised when just trying to isolate limpers, eventually someone would notice.

because you're compounding a "mistake" already made by the limper... playing too many (weak) hands OOP and then triggering the "i already have some money in there so i'll call this raise and see if i flop something"... chances are they'll miss and when you 1/2 pot it, you take it down. you're also running out players behind you that might have come along for a smaller bet (pot odds), and you're effectively becoming the BTN and acting last HU with a weaker player in a larger pot.

Re-read the "Gangup Effect" section of the article.

And this reply applies too:

KurtSF,

I've only recently joined 2+2 and so have been catching up with the CotWs (which are A+), and wanted to say that I both enjoyed and learned a lot from this one. Thanks!

+1 for writing style, loled my ass off many times through your post.

Just a quick note - this post thread has added a lot of BBs to my bankroll. Perfect for the 10NL games I play in.

How often should I be actually isolating the limpers? Right now I play at 2NL-5NL and it seems like I could be isolating limpers constantly

Try it and see...

Though it can be over-done, the general answer is "a lot", especially at the stakes your playing. At 2nl and 5nl other players at the table will not catch on to what you are doing. They will limp, call your raise, and fold to your cbet unless they hit gin, and they will do it over and over and over and over again.

Very nice. This is going to help me greatly. I liked the last bit especially about the MP raise with multiple limpers. Also you writing style makes for a good read.

Good thread. Thanks OP