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Old 06-28-2009, 11:04 PM   #51
dwalker012
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Fantastic post.

Too many lazy players are running to deep tables because they are too friggin lazy to put the work in. They are letting the SSer take the fight to them. How about taking the fight to the shorty? Take back your tables. This concept was looooong overdue.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:59 AM   #52
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

And a few of us can whip shortstacks just fine but HATE PLAYING SHORT STACK POKER, so feel free to open the door--try the knob--and walk out of that nice little box of bigotry you're living in and realize there's more to the world than your own opinions. Some people don't LIKE playing shortstack poker, regardless of how profitable or unprofitable it might be. I could make money robbing old ladies walking into Bingo night at knifepoint, too, and that would be profitable (and low risk, in this damn town, as long as I give the cops a 30% cut)

But I don't because I don't think it would be enjoyable

CLIFF'S NOTES: don't be a jackass
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:23 AM   #53
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

playing against SS is profitable for me...but playing against the players at the deep stack table is waaay more profitable.

I don't care how good you are against SS, if you are good at deepstack poker, crushing SS just mathematically just can't catch up.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:48 AM   #54
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

I'm playing on the best tables available at the time I'm playing. Fish don't care about shortstacks or 50bb min tables. If I have to endure a couple of shorties to feast on one or two fish then so be it. Nobody is saying 50bb is more or less profitable than normal tables. Having the option to play either and profit is great. Being a good right handed or left handed batter is good. Knowing how to bat switch handed is even better.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:53 AM   #55
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

OT and not sure if anyone here cares but the guy who wrote All In Expert is also an admitted botter and has a series of articles on his site about creating and running a bot on Stars.
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:32 PM   #56
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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OT and not sure if anyone here cares but the guy who wrote All In Expert is also an admitted botter and has a series of articles on his site about creating and running a bot on Stars.
yea...i didnt realize that until after i had used his software for awhile.

great software none the less (and ive checked his calcs and all come up correctly from the couple ive done)
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:12 PM   #57
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Has anyone used both AIE and Short Stacking Strategy Calculator? On the surface it looks like they do the same thing.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:32 PM   #58
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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Has anyone used both AIE and Short Stacking Strategy Calculator? On the surface it looks like they do the same thing.
SSSC is kind of similar...but AIE is better for getting deeper information and being able to take weighted ranges into consideration (where SSSC only takes ATS and its assumed range)
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:36 PM   #59
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

nice read - thanks!
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:40 PM   #60
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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nice read - thanks!
no problem. hopefully it helps
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:38 PM   #61
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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But how do we know their ranges? Start thinking about it. I have actually had students before that had trouble against SS's, so I told them to spend a week creating a SS-ing strategy and then we reviewed it. Amazingly enough, this simple exercise (that took maybe 2-3hrs for them), made it so they understood every range of a SS'r, how position changed their ranges, and most importantly, how to counter it. After spending maybe a total of 4hrs on everything (doing the work themselves, working it out with me, etc) they had it so they never had a tough decision against a SS'r. Now, if you are reading this paper to figure out exact ranges, I apologize...Just consider this super beneficial homework =)
Sorry, this might be a question better directed at another forum, but how does one go about doing this? The idea of creating a strategy from scratch seems so mathematically demanding that I have no idea of where to begin.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:25 AM   #62
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

1. pretend you are a SSr
2. start from UTG
3. pick a hand
4. consider raising that hand
5. consider what would happen if ppl folded, 3b, called
6. do we think that is profitable given flops if called?
7. add/delete hand to/from range

do this around the table. yes, it takes time. but i figured out a very +EV SSing strategy in 2.5hrs waiting around in an airport with pokerstove, AIE, and a logic tree. you can do the same =)
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:14 AM   #63
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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1. pretend you are a SSr
2. start from UTG
3. pick a hand
4. consider raising that hand
5. consider what would happen if ppl folded, 3b, called
6. do we think that is profitable given flops if called?
7. add/delete hand to/from range

do this around the table. yes, it takes time. but i figured out a very +EV SSing strategy in 2.5hrs waiting around in an airport with pokerstove, AIE, and a logic tree. you can do the same =)
I was getting killed at teh pokers today so I stopped playing and decided to do this.

I think i came up with decent opening range from each position, what hands to 3 bet against certain opening ranges, etc.

I having a little trouble figuring out a few things though such as . . .

How much is a decent short stacker changing his opening range after limpers? 1 limper? 2 limpers? etc?

I assume a good SS'er is open raising a wide range from CO and BTN but I am guessing they are generally removing weaker hands like A2s, 55, or QTo after a limper or two? Or are they open shipping with these hands sometimes?

What about like 88 after 2 or 3 limpers?

Also, is a SS'er generally raising 3x+1bb per limper when they do raise like we generally do playing full stacked?

Thanks in advance

great article as well split
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:42 AM   #64
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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How much is a decent short stacker changing his opening range after limpers? 1 limper? 2 limpers? etc?

only the good SSrs do this. and they tend to open up the range by 2-4 hands either way (so if their original range was 99+/AJ+ then they tend to loosen up to 77+/AT+/KQ)

I assume a good SS'er is open raising a wide range from CO and BTN but I am guessing they are generally removing weaker hands like A2s, 55, or QTo after a limper or two? Or are they open shipping with these hands sometimes?

Read above. And yes, they will sometimes ship their range over limpers (they tend to get calls by the whole limp range with good edges (hint: A8s goes waaaaaaaay up in value for a SS shove there)

What about like 88 after 2 or 3 limpers?

read above

Also, is a SS'er generally raising 3x+1bb per limper when they do raise like we generally do playing full stacked?

generally, yes. and almost always smaller as a steal

Thanks in advance

great article as well split
thank you...glad you enjoyed

(also, hint for those trying to build these ranges...generally start with 77 and AT as your baseline hands from each spot)
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:06 AM   #65
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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thank you...glad you enjoyed

(also, hint for those trying to build these ranges...generally start with 77 and AT as your baseline hands from each spot)
Thanks split.

So, the good SS'ers actually loosen up there iso range after a few limpers i was thinking the opposite? I was thinking they want to fold the weaker hands in there range as both limpers are going to call and we are stuck with having to c/f or ship flop because of the pot size.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:13 AM   #66
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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Thanks split.

So, the good SS'ers actually loosen up there iso range after a few limpers i was thinking the opposite? I was thinking they want to fold the weaker hands in there range as both limpers are going to call and we are stuck with having to c/f or ship flop because of the pot size.
A8s is not weak in that spot (think about ranges, FE, overlay, and ee when called)

and there are no tough spots with 1SPR
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:14 AM   #67
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

nice post.
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:51 AM   #68
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Is it a safe program? The All In expert?
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:18 AM   #69
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Split your a huge credit to this forum, just skimming the first page gives me a "wow feeling", looks really in depth, and yet easy to digest at first glance so thanks a ton for that.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:43 PM   #70
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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Is it a safe program? The All In expert?
I've never had an issue with it

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Split your a huge credit to this forum, just skimming the first page gives me a "wow feeling", looks really in depth, and yet easy to digest at first glance so thanks a ton for that.
thnx sir. picture makes things easier to digest =)
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:45 PM   #71
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Heh, just saw this post again. I still love it.

I will say this - a table of 8 20BB shortstackers is ****ing hilarious.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:53 AM   #72
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

Hej, James.

We've translated your article to russian (http://pokera2c.pokeroff.ru/blog/note/1271833/), as you know, and got a whole discussion there on this topic.

I've decided to ask you for an opinion.

1. The discussion started over the stats that you gave for FR games.Many people, and that surprises me, are saying that nowadays shorts are like 14/12 or higher and it is profitable, like this guy ( http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...arch/BSS+Rulez) . When 7/7 is a weak game.

What is your opinion here ? How do professional shortstakers play on higher limits nowadays ? Can you say something changed in this year after the article was written ?
Why can we see SS's like 16/16 profitable ? My theory is that because few people can defend against their agression out of BUT on micros (like adjusting 3bet/pushing ranges against shorts)




2. I've seen some articles where people tend to say that 5ptbb is possible for SS ? What do you think about winrates for SS players ?
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:27 PM   #73
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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Hej, James.

We've translated your article to russian (http://pokera2c.pokeroff.ru/blog/note/1271833/), as you know, and got a whole discussion there on this topic.

I've decided to ask you for an opinion.

1. The discussion started over the stats that you gave for FR games.Many people, and that surprises me, are saying that nowadays shorts are like 14/12 or higher and it is profitable, like this guy ( http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...arch/BSS+Rulez) . When 7/7 is a weak game.

What is your opinion here ? How do professional shortstakers play on higher limits nowadays ? Can you say something changed in this year after the article was written ?
Why can we see SS's like 16/16 profitable ? My theory is that because few people can defend against their agression out of BUT on micros (like adjusting 3bet/pushing ranges against shorts)


2. I've seen some articles where people tend to say that 5ptbb is possible for SS ? What do you think about winrates for SS players ?
1.) are they talking about FR shortstackers or 6max shortstackers? obvi the 6max SS'rs are going to have to play looser to combat the blinds coming around faster, and they can get away with given wider O-Ranges (thus more outright folding when they resteal). I just did a SS session last night and ran 9/9. This is pretty standard, and the loosest SSr that I know was solid as hell was running slightly looser at 11/10.

2.) not even close. 2PT/100 is usually a cap, and in any game worth shorting, your aim as a SSr is like 1.2PT/100. Most SSrs will be too tight and their baseline strat will be around .4PT/100, and the ones that get in the 1PT/100-1.6PT/100 are the ones with a very solid understanding of reship ranges, squeezes, and ranging from EP-MP. of course, this is all at FR...again, i have no idea on 6max shorting because i don't do it
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:57 PM   #74
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

MT2R discussed win rates at one time and his opinion was that 1.5ptBB/100 was pretty reasonable, although the very best could get it to over 2ptBB/100 at 6max. With 6max, you're depending on people opening lighter than FR, thereby catching more people with weaker holdings.

As for playing style, I'll note that the referenced player has essentially flat lined for the last 6 months and is essentially a rakeback pro now.
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Old 05-20-2010, 06:27 PM   #75
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Re: Concept of the Week #21: Shortstacks: The Path To Exploitation

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MT2R discussed win rates at one time and his opinion was that 1.5ptBB/100 was pretty reasonable, although the very best could get it to over 2ptBB/100 at 6max. With 6max, you're depending on people opening lighter than FR, thereby catching more people with weaker holdings.

As for playing style, I'll note that the referenced player has essentially flat lined for the last 6 months and is essentially a rakeback pro now.
Hmm...the flatline seems to have started in January. I wonder what happened then...
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