Sorry.. my question wasn't meant to be an attack at all (if that's how it came across) - I think your guide is awesome.

I am beating NL5 for about 3PTBB/100 but struggling to be consistent and move up - And I'm very confused about playing the small pockets from EP. There are conflicting ideas on the topic: Raising is "right" but it chases away potential second best hands and invites bigger pockets in... Limping means playing "bad" poker, but gets more second best hands in to set mine.

Anyway, that was the reason for my question. Thank you so much for the effort you put into making the guide. I've read it like three times already.

I didn't take it as an attack or anything, I'm just terse at times If you're beating 5NL you can probably start raising PP's from EP if you're able to cbet the right flops and can easily check/fold if you miss and the flop isn't good. But you don't really have to, you can fold 22-66 from EP and beat 5NL just fine. It's more about avoiding marginal situations while you're still learning than anything.

At 2NL and 5NL don't worry about limping being 'bad poker'. 5NL is barely poker, and anything that is +EV is a profitable play for you and thus makes sense. Limping can be very +EV at 2NL and 5NL because most people do not raise over the limpers (not very aggro pre flop) and because people will pay you off when you hit with just about anything, so you don't have to worry about building the pot pre flop. If you're opening from MP+ I'd definitely raise most of them, but again if you limp 22-66 in MP it isn't that bad at 2NL/5NL. 10NL is a whole other story because people start to punish limpers, so you almost never want to limp.

Wow, excellent post, sircuddles. I know it was a lot of work and I hope putting it together helped you.. It will certainly help me and many others. Thanks.

Great stuff sircuddles... very helpful to me. Posters like you are what makes me love this place. Thanks a lot!

I have only just recently joined this forum and it is for posts just like this one. Thanks so much. AA

almost 2K views in 1 day...siiiiiick

solid, good job sir

naise!

Haha about your starting hand chart, I play ATC from BTN.

this is still a bit too nitty imo... i open the button even if i'm not dealt in

Thanks!

Now my other question: do you ever continue (call) against non-maniacs who play back at you at those limits? I've seen people minraise my cbet only to find out they have the nuts or close. I thought b/f flops or turns would be such a huge leake but I'm wondering if it only is at higher stakes?

Enquiring mind wants to know, and thanks for the great thread.

Great work!! Thx

I started to consistently fold one-pair hands against checkraises by unknowns... saves a lot of headache.

This guide is meant for people unable to post a profit at the micros. If you can't beat the limit, you won't be playing ATC from BTN for obvious reasons. Anyone who can beat the limit would of course have a range much wider.

If I have air I just fold. I get raised on flops and raised on turns constantly at 25NL (raising flops and donking flops is like the 'new' thing or something) and if you have air you just fold. You have nothing, so if they're playing back good for them. If you have something like trips I tend to call the raise and check it back if I'm OOP. These people are idiots, any they bet almost any time you bet the flop and check the turn. Then I just shove over them and they usually fold.

I'll also randomly pick spots against people who frequently donk the flop to raise their donk. I'd say they call and fold 50/50, but it's also for your image. A 65/20 fish is clearly disabled, but even he will remember when you huge raise his donk bet. Usually they will only donk bet with a hand from there on in.

lol NoT

playing some last nite and 'SirCuddles" shows up at 1 of my tables.
as mentioned sir, this is a great read.
you mentioned, you are working your way up to next level, how many buyins are you moving up, or are you wanting a certain # of hands with a certain winrate?

thanx again.

I'm going to start taking shots when I have 20 BI's, but I expect that I won't fully move until I'm at 25-30 BI's. I have no experience of 50NL so I'm not sure how well I'll do. When I take shots I tend to go down to 1-2 tables and focus on the players when I'm not in hands and try to get a feel for the bet sizing people are using, etc.

I'm also using my time at 25NL to practice fancy plays against regs. I'm starting to 3bet a bit lighter in some spots, check raise some flops, float some flops, double barrel, etc. I want to practice these sorts of plays at 25NL and get an idea for what works and what doesn't rather than try them out for the first time at 50NL because that would likely not end well. Still ironing some other things in my game out... but my goal is to be shot taking 50NL by the end of the month at the latest.

I have a question about this. When I have played and tried to follow the guide strictly, I have found that my VPIP/PFR is in the neighborhood of 10/8 or 9/7. That is pretty much nit range and is a player type you identified in the villian section, which I assume will get exploited at least occasionally at the micros. Can you elaborate on widening the ranges a little bit more so our VPIP/PFR is closer to 14/11 or something less exploitable than 9/7? Or do you recommend just sticking strictly to the guide?

I would agree that ATC from the button is better suited for someone already beating the level, but I think the ranges in the guide could be wider. Regardless, I think the guide is awesome and I thank you for posting it.

I run around 13/11ish and I open really wide from LP (almost ATC). You will have nit stats following the hand chart in the guide (and that is the whole point). If you wanted to open it up a bit, open with all PP's from any position and add in suited aces and any broadway combos to your LP (HJ and later) positions. This will still mostly keep you out of trouble (careful with A5s and under though) and allow you to open your range.

Starting hand selection is something that causes a lot of controversy between players and I almost didn't include one, but it's very important for a new player to have a starting point. That chart there is a very safe starting point, so just expand on it as you learn and as you play more. It's also so dependant on the table flow and players that it's impossible to give a solid 'raise with this, fold this' kind of guide.

When it comes to EP though you really don't want to get any looser than PP's and AJo+, the only time you'd change that is for balancing your range and you absolutely don't need that for a long, long time.

And as far as people exploiting you, you really don't have to worry about that until 25NL. Even if someone is using a HUD the chances of them playing back at you when you're a nit is practically zero. If anything they might fold more against you (which is arguably a good thing), but the fish will have no idea of your stats and thus it won't matter.

+1

the starting hand range is just that, a starting point. learn to beat a level, then customize it for yourself to increase value.

how many hands at a level do you want to have to feel comfortable that you are beating that level, before moving up? 10k @ 25nl for 4.5ptbb/100 decent for taking shots @ 50nl? I am leaning towards at least twice that # of hands or more for myself, might drop down some tables as you mentioned and take some shots. moving up to 25nl from 10nl has been the toughest level jump so far for me. definite more aggressive players.

thanks for input.

I don't really put a solid number on it, some people go by X amount of hands or X winrate or X amount of time. Theoretically you need hundreds of thousands of hands to get an accuarate sample. I tend to go with my bankroll because it's really the simplest way. I made money at 5NL over ~23k hands and moved to 10NL for only a week (only had one losing session) just to get used to being 100BB's deep and make some adjustments. 25NL is a pretty big jump because pre flop changes a lot, or at least it did for me.

If you make money at a limit and move up with proper BR management the sample size is generally not that important if you're willing to move down if you lose. If you're beating a limit long enough to build a roll for the next limit, chances are that you aren't just running hot or getting lucky, you probably do have the skill to beat the limit.

I've only played maybe 80k hands of poker online, and only 50k or so since November (when I started for the second time), so technically I could just be on a super sick heater and in reality I suck at poker. I don't think that it's likely because I don't feel I run better than anyone else, but it's still certainly possible. If you move up because of your BR and get smoked, then just move back down and repeat the process. Assuming you keep improving, eventually you'll stick at the next limit.

Hi.

I use the agression/street stat a lot for this. It is not uncommon that villain has stats like 2/7/1 and C/R your turn bet a lot. Against these players you can often make them fold by raising them again. If villain has more "balanced" numbers I give him credit for a hand most of the time.

// M

Yeah that's a good way to tell, unfortunately I rarely am playing with people that I have a sufficient sample size for to get any real indication of how aggro they are. Regulars don't usually donk flops, so it's generally just fish. It's hard to tell, but so far it seems like they donk with nothing more than something, but I could be wrong.

If you are using HEM these stats are default in the TA pop-up I think. I think you might find that evan some REGs are check raising the turn, because it´s a sign of real strength. Maybe you shouldn´t raise with air or very weak holdings without a history with villain, but I think you should be aware of this move.

Maybe this a bit more advanced than the purpose of this guide. So you might want to ignore it for now.

// M

The problem is that a statistic like check/raise on turn is going to take a long time to converge in to an accurate statistic, which leads to inaccurate play if you rely on it before you have a sufficient sample size. It's a handy stat if you have 500 hands on somebody, but most of the time I have 50 hands or less on my opponents.

I don´t mean the CR turn stat. I said I used the Flop aggression, Turn agression and River aggression stats to find out if someone is overly aggressive on any street. You´re right about that it takes a lot of hands to get accurate statistics of how often villain is CR:ing the turn and that is why I use the aggression stats instead.

// M