#fact

lol im too determined im gonna prove this **** is rigged or beat it. at this point im literally getting down to two short stack buy ins , going to reg six max table crushing fish back to 10 buy ins and going back to zone and dumping it to coolers and absolutley perfect plays only a fish or superuser could make. im the unluckiest person to live at zone or its rigged ( as in the site is using superuser) its literally the perfect game to do it and the money is not insignificant at that stake especially at the winrate of a superuser .

last year i messed around at zone for 24k hands at either 5nl or 10nl and i was a sllllllight winner only because of sheer redline. even then i lost every showdown. you can almost exploitable fold to every single three bet and pre flop raise this **** is reatarded.

How many hours a day do you study?

lolsamplesize and ran pretty hot obviously, so take it for what it's worth, but here's how I did at 5NLz:



I definitely think it is beatable, but the rake sucks. I don't think you should be going on 45 BI downswings at this level. You're doing something wrong. I'd ask for advice on hands you're not sure about.

You mean 5 whole dollars? that doesnt sound very GTO to me.

I use the exact same strat as you except I only double barrel in certain situations depending on the flop. Maybe half the time. Also you can 4 bet bluff/fold profitably because everyone is 3 betting light. Im getting like 16bb/100 at 25/50c over 80k hands. My win rate was actually better at 25/50 than at 10/25. I havent gone up to 1/2 yet but my plan is to grind up to 5k before going 1/2 and if I lose half my bankroll go back down to 25/50.

idk what gto has to do with anything. im not putting more money on this site*

ive im still playing hands im starting to think its just nit bots and the fish making it such a weird combo. its started to turn around but the strat im using now would be ******ed in any other game of poker. if your natural style wins in bovada zone then your on a ****ed path. i think its literally the tightest weakest bots coupled with spazzing fish that make it so ****ing weird of a playing pool but way too many bots to adjust to the fish. just focus on bots style imo.

thats what i was hoping to see from someone. where was your redline?

I tap out, this **** is not poker. there is def. ****ery going on in bovada zone. its not possible for everyone to constantly have pair over pair set over set this much. i doubt its super using its more like super tight bots and fish losing there minds to RNGs that are made to make bigger hands so larger pots can be raked.

ive tried every strat, weak tight seems to do the best but with the coolers your having to even fold your value range. this **** is garbage. i wish i could prove but im to dumb lol. if you decide to play gl but for me **** bovada zone. i should know a carnival game when i see one by now , so shame on me.

Hahahahhhahahahahahah

just study and stop self pitying / tilting. you're fuming on an internet forum devoted to playing cards while you aren't playing, it's not hard to imagine that you are probably losing your cool while playing fast-fold poker. Noone owes you becoming a winner at the micros, you still have to put in work, and you will still go on disgusting downswings. The game owes you nothing, if you want to learn to win, you can't just expect the site to reward you for depositing 50 dollars and hoping to sunrun your way to 200NL.

it's easy to mistake crazy play for genius play. Rather than focusing on the hands that went to showdown I suggest you notate suspect hands and review them 24 hours later when you can see their hole cards. I kept notepad minimized for the expressed purpose of just jotting down whichever hand number smelled FOS and through that I started to get a picture of the kinds of fish and the lines they take. I'd put in 500-1000 hands per session and usually have about 5-10 hands that never went to showdown that I'd investigate later.

Apparently all fish read the same book on bad play and many many lines are instantly recognizable. The min3bet, the donk minibet, x/minraise flop, etc. You can sorta call out the fish in a single hand on a totally anon table and take an appropriate line vs them with some degree of success.

You have to take the min3bets seriously, just because they are using the wrong sizing doesn't mean they aren't playing strong hands. I've seen min3bets with AA, KK, AK. Sometimes I've seen them flat these hands. They will follow the min3bet with a m***** otf. You can raise their bet but they will call and still lead out again with the min bet. OTR they show AA, KK. My first 10k hands on Zone, I got crushed but have. My last 30k hands I've been winning at 5bb/100, not crushing but not getting crushed.

Not sure about poster who 3bets their entire range. I think you have to play zone straight up and assume you are playing other competent players, because there are competent players at 5nl. Evenings/Weekends are the best time to play because there will be more fish. I think you are up against a bunch of regs during the day.

^ I may have run into a minraise from AA/KK like 2 times in all of my zone play. Lets say I open 77 from MP to .17 and the BTN 3bets me to .24. This is literally a complete trash hand every single time. Trust me I had plenty of tilted hero calls where I was just fed up calling to see what they had and they were 3betting with K3s, T5s, 72o, just complete nonsense. I'm not sure what possesses them to do this, but if I had to guess they're trying to either induce action to make their decisions easier or they're just gambling with a random "pot sweetener" hoping to suckout in a larger pot.

I said to 3bet your entire range because how does UTG know how to adjust to that? Unless he has an ez preflop decision you're basically exploiting the presumption that he could always be crushed. Or you quickly try to define his range postflop based upon what board texture he's willing to continue on.

the min raising are clearly fish i agree ( i also see the fish limping early postion to enduce a raise with large pocket pairs but its painfully obvious) zone is an exercise of value betting the very top of your range imo and not really poker. but what do you think of the hands. i know its fast fold but your only getting a pocket pair 6% of the time 78/1326. and the fact that its aces over kings over queens and jacks is even less likely yet it happens enough to destroy your win rate not to mention the exorbitant amount of sets ( way to high) and ( sets over sets) almost unbelievable. maybe it is beatable ( i dont think so ) but bovada is def. are messing with the hands to generate all in action for higher rake at the very least of things that could be going wrong. (

ive sun run alot higher than 200nl . i beat a few games already im specifically talking about BOVADA zone and the legitimacy of this particular format.

.... but yes i was fuming

Its definitely beatable. Ive been beating it steadily. You have to adjust your play and use good poker judgment. You can vary your bet size based on hand strength since no one can get a read on you. You also have to use position and outplay people post flop. Most important you have to control the size of the pots with proper betting and post flop actions. How many streets of value is your hand worth based on the board? You need to be making quick decisions about how much money your willing to get involved given the size of your stack and your opponents. The fact that you can get your stack 4 or 5 buyins deep and play a pot against another big stack is a very profitable opportunity as long as your careful and know how and when to fold. I run in to deep stacks calling off with an overpair and pluck off short half stacks jamming with 77-JJ. If you play well post flop you can easily win.


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Honestly I think the frequency of coolers simply feels exaggerated due to the insane volume you're able to put in. When you can put in an entire month's worth of live hands into a single day long session on zone then you're going to run into so many sets and KK vs AA it'll make your head spin. Grab a copy of DriveHUD and analyze how often this really happens.

I toasted my pc and am running off a laptop with no software at the moment but I'll go through the annoying process of getting a bitcoin deposit on bovada and install DriveHUD and report back with some results in a few days/weeks.

There is a crazy amount of unbelievable coolers. Some seem so crazy I could see how someone would think it might be rigged but even when I lose 3 or 4 coolers in a session Im still usually up for the session. Good aggressive play almost free-rolls the coolers. You have to battle for pots and make moves at the right times. There is no ABC method for it. I think thats what he is finding frustrating. But losing 30BI means his style is not a good strategy for zone. Zone definitely has an optimal strategy-since you can disregard balance. I always look at the stack sizes before deciding to play a hand because certain hands play better post flop vs certain stacks.


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Shoot at the 10/25c you can basically just jamm AIl in every time you spike the money card and you will get called probably half the time. That alone should make you profitable unless your game is leaking like a siv.


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I understand. I don't think your skill is coming into question, just your aptitude for playing zoom style poker, maybe. I am very new to playing online cash, and after playing a lot of reg tables at 5 / 10 nl, I can definitely say that Zone taxes my pre and post flop skills quite a bit more. There is also a definite amount of mental toughness that you need to deal with the swings, which can be wayyy more stomach turning than playing reg. But, everyone gets cold decked, everyone runs kings into aces for the 3rd time in one session and wins the blinds 3 times when they have aces, everyone gets set over set twice in one day after running cold for a week, this is not what you should be focusing your energy on. I am curious to know what your warmup / cooldown routine is for playing cash. Do you study hands before and after you play, or do you just jump right in?
And, not trying to be condescending, I am LEARNING to play Zone. I think it is an integral part of learning to beat the game, as it helps develop solid fundamental play, and really exposes you to some of the real variance of NLHE cash.

Its literally impossible to comprehend how shi t you have to be if you can't beat 5nl zone.

maybe it would be good for you to post some of the hands that you think superusing might be occurring in? Also, are you using drivehud or some other tracker, and how are you studying from your results? Especially** in the hands that you think someone might be cheating you.

also, not hating, think you could use this as a learning experience to better your game

for instance, when I make a blunder in a big pot, I used to just feel a lot of anger after a session and refuse to look at my results until the next day, but recently I've been powering through, and no matter how much I don't want to do it, I take time at the end of a session to try to thoroughly analyze the hand, and there's ALWAYS something that can be improved, and it helps to have it fresh in your mind, to know what state you were in when you made the play. That way you can try to remove the emotion from it, and look at it objectively.