This is from a 1/2 hand in a club on Pokerrr. The population here is much more like a live 1-2 crowd than online.

Villain is a little aggro and I've see him bluff a couple rivers with busted draws.

Stacks are $300 effective. 8-handed.

Villain raises to $6 in EP. I 3-bet to $24 on the BTN with KK. Villain 4-bets to $65. I call.

Flop ($130 in pot): Q36r. (I don't actually remember the exact the cards but the two besides the Q were both rags and irrelevant to our ranges, based on the PF action).

Villain bets $100. I call. (He's got a lot of AA and QQ in his range, so I wanted to play it cautiously.)

Turn ($330 pot): blank, like an 8 or something. Villain checks.

Here's my question: I've got $160 behind at this point. Should I just shove right here, or check behind?

I don't think AK or JJ are calling me and it's pretty optimistic to think he's even got AQ or KQ. He's certainly not folding the hands beating me.

If I do check behind and the shoves on the river, I think I definitely have to call because now I've under-repped my hand and maybe he'll bluff.

Maybe it just doesn't matter what I do on the turn because the pot is too big and there's no way all my chips are not going in? (Barring an A or Q river.)

You asking if you should shove your last 160 into a $330 pot on Q xxx board turn after villain checks

I think yes you win plenty enough

If they're aggro and known to bluff then I would check behind turn, check behind rivers and call any bet on river.

1. I'll give you another way to play KK. Just shove pre-flop in that position. Then you don't have to worry about all of that post-flop maneuvering and second-guessing.

2. Here is yet another way to play KK. If you are going to just call his 4 bet, get ready to take the pot down on the flop IF NO ACE. No Ace on flop, he bets $100 into a $130 pot, you have $265 left. BOOM -- all in!

How many hands do you 5 bet shove with? Just one? If so, your opponents would be right to 4 bet you with any 2 cards. You are going to have to 5 bet with more than just AA. Or you should just never 3 bet.

A. He may be bluffing. He is an EP raiser, he may be representing a stronger hand than he actually has. His 4 bet may be just him not wanting to give up the lead.

B. Many players, if not most modern players, are going play AA,KK,QQ, AKs and AKo this same exact way that he has played and they may even throw in a couple 4 bet bluff hands like A5s, A4s. Your Kings are doing fine against that range. Hence, you should 5 bet, pre-flop and the only reasonable 5 bet size at this point is all in.

GL, Magnum

Should you shove there? Yes you are pot committed. Try not to get 1/3 of your stack committed and fold.

You don't think AK is calling you?
1. he didn't call you he 4 bet you. But I understand what you are saying.
2. As I said in my last post, most modern players will 4 bet you with QQ+/AK - as a value bet, meaning they would also call your 5 bet with those hands. So I think AK is still alive as a possible hand you are up against.

This is GTO stuff. For some poker literature that talk about 3bet/4bet/5bet ranges I recommend:

Advanced Concepts in NLHE, by Cichy
Modern Poker Theory, Acevedo
Carroter's Grinder's Manual
Red Chip Poker website.

Good Luck, Magnum

I mean I don't think AK is calling me on the turn if shove there. Not talking about what hands are in his range preflop.

The issue is, on the turn, is there any value from a shove, or are only hands that are beating me going to call?

I see re: AK. Understood.

Is there any value in a turn shove or is it just hands that beat you that call? I don't know, good question. I think your last sentence sums it up, you're committed anyway. There is some value to taking the pot down now. Like you said, if he has AK or AQ, there are some cards that could fall on the river that would ruin your hand.

GL, Magnum

I guess I didn't word my OP properly because it seems more than one of you thought I was asking about folding. I'm never folding.

My question was mainly about what's the best way to get value: shove the turn or check the turn to induce bluffs or loose calls on the river.

At this point it is not really about getting value or not. You dont slow play an over pair (i.e give Ax, Qx,, 8x, any pocket pairs a free card which will get there 5-10 % of the time, or 10-20 % if given free cards on two streets) - you just need to shove on the flop with KK for value and protection. If you have QQ here, go ahead and slow if there is not flush or straight draws whatsoever on the turn. In other words, only slow play in a 3-bet pot if your opponent got virtually no outs. For the record you should have shoved preflop. AA is fine to slow play preflop, but not KK. If you want a "bluffing range" post flop, just mix in other hands than KK when calling, e.g. KQs.

It’s an awkward 4 bet size for our stack, but I still think I want to be shipping it preflop here


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If we give EP villan a tight 4-bet range of QQ+, AKs, and AKo, Hero's KK is 57% favourite pre-flop and drops to a 45% dog after a Q63r flop. I was thinking Q rag rag would be good for Kings before I checked. Makes me think 5-bet shove pre-flop is indeed the play to choose. I have the feeling AK and QQ call the shove plenty often enough.

You're thinking about the turn play in terms of what hands will call your bet that you win against, and you might be right that you do not win against most of them. But your analysis is missing the fact that you win EV by hands your opponent folds as well. Any pocket pairs that can hit sets, pairs that can improve, or any draws your opponent might have that are very weak that he will fold – you win money by folding those out instead of giving them a free card. True, those hands might not have a lot of equity, but they are probably a significant part of his range. So you win money by folding out his garbage that can still beat you on the river, not just by getting called by worse hands.

I learned this from Andrew Brokos' podcast, Thinking Poker, and I thought it was one of the most well-explained concepts I had heard. Sometimes your bets will win money mostly from the portion of your opponent's range that call your bet, and sometimes your bets win most from the portion of your opponent's range that folds to your bet.

TL;DR – you have to jam the turn to deny equity to villain's garbage so he doesn't draw out on the river for free.

Well , just yesterday i was about in the same spot. I was the EP tho.
Having KK.

1.Pre flop i am 4-betting(UTG) , Fold , Fold , only CO Calls.

2. Flop comes Q-J-8 rainbow. I am betting pot , CO raises to a 3-bet , i shove.

3. He goes into the tank and calls with A-Q.

He hits ACE on RIVER.

I think i played it as i should. Different position but it has many similarities to yours