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Old 11-19-2017, 08:50 AM   #1
Finser12
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10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Should jacks 4bet here? I have no read on SB.

On flop, for his value range, I'm beating maybe 99 and TT. Fold feels very nitty. I feel I should 4bet pre but then I'm basically committed if he shoves. Any thoughts?

888 Poker - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 23.6 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
CO: 140.6 BB (VPIP: 85.71, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BTN: 96.6 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (UTG): 111.5 BB
UTG+1: 100.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 13 BB, fold, Hero calls 10 BB, fold

Flop: (30 BB, 2 players) 2 8 K
SB bets 15 BB, fold,
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:06 AM   #2
Brussels Sprout
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

What we can see about villain is that he's playing 100BB and he's only played 1 hand in 7. He's almost certainly not a spewtard and I'd lean more toward classifying him as a standard 10nl player.
So, against a standard 10nl player I think flatting the 3bet is fine. 4betting really only eliminates the hands that we're flipping with or crushing while getting all of the hands that he's crushing us with to continue.
On the flop the K isn't a great card for us as AK is a a huge part of his range. I think folding is probably best.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:31 PM   #3
Finser12
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Thanks Brussels Sprout. That sounds right from what I've seen at 10NL. It just feels very exploitable to be laying down hands as strong as jacks here. Just have to lay it down and move on to a better spot I guess.
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:49 PM   #4
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

If you had folded to the 3bet or had had folded to the c-bet on an 884 flop then yes that would be exploitable for sure. Likewise, if you had 4betted your JJ would you have called off to a shove? If not then you turned your hand into a bluff by 4bet/folding it. However if you do call a shove it's likely that your JJ will be in bad shape versus villain's shoving range.

Your JJ was a strong hand in the context of your original raise. However, villain's 3bet and the subsequent flop texture devalued it considerably. One of the biggest leaks people have at the micros is confusing absolute hand strength with relative strength.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:16 AM   #5
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

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Originally Posted by Brussels Sprout View Post
Likewise, if you had 4betted your JJ would you have called off to a shove? If not then you turned your hand into a bluff by 4bet/folding it.
This isn't necessarily true if we think villain has a 4B calling range that we're ahead of. Not saying that is the case here tho.

@OP, I'm calling flop and going from there.
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:08 AM   #6
Finser12
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Thanks both.

Flop call I guess depends on villain. If he does have a bluff hand like Axs or 910s, he might give up on a lot of turns I guess. A bluff just seems unlikely here as I think most reg-type 10NL players are unlikely to bluff in spots like this against unknown players and he has no history with me.

In the absence of info, a fold seems best on the flop. 99 and 1010 might not cbet here. AK AA QQ are crushing me.
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:32 AM   #7
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

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Originally Posted by Finser12 View Post
Flop call I guess depends on villain. If he does have a bluff hand like Axs or 910s, he might give up on a lot of turns I guess. A bluff just seems unlikely here as I think most reg-type 10NL players are unlikely to bluff in spots like this against unknown players and he has no history with me.
Really disagree with folding flop. If he has a bluff range pre (which he likely does) he's going to c-bet almost 100% of the time on that flop. It's pretty standard to call one street imo.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:04 AM   #8
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Thanks Scoop.

So say his value range is likely something like AA to TT plus 16 AK.

That's 24+1 JJ+16 = 41 value hands.

He's risking 12.5 BBs to win 7.5 that are already in preflop.
How many bluffs should he have here?


I guess I'd pick hands like A5s - 4
AQs - 4
and KQs - 4 as all have some card removal to improve fold equity. Is that enough bluffs in this spot?

I don't have bluffs to 3bet an utg open from SB myself but I guess I'll need to against strong opponents. I don't know whether many 10 NL players have a bluff 3bet range OOP against an UTG open.

I heard Doug Polk mention a book called Applications of NL Holdem. Does that give the theory of this stuff?
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:22 AM   #9
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

OP it's not so much that SB will have a bluff 3bet range as to why people want you to possibly call flop, it's more that some people legit don't call from the sb and 3bet every hand they want to play, so a hand like kqs, 10-9s, j-10s n such could possibly be in villains range. We clearly have no idea how villain plays & i'de say flop on an A is probably 100% correct to fold, K high is closer & can go either way without reads, don't think you're making much of a mistake whichever decision you choose.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:02 PM   #10
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Thanks Exothermic. That makes a lot of sense. It didn't occur to me he might be 3betting or folding to an early open.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:06 PM   #11
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

4 bet no, only 7 hands but SB seems tight plus, he 3 bet UTG open and without info i assign him narrow range i say QQ+ AQs+ , with JJ i prefer call, u have position, that flop is good only 1 overcard but again his range crush your hand, vs that range your equity is only 17% , ok his range could be more wide, we can ad AQo JJ maybe TT KQ (i dont think)
your equity is about 27% so fold is correct move
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:07 PM   #12
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopMonkey View Post
This isn't necessarily true if we think villain has a 4B calling range that we're ahead of. Not saying that is the case here tho.

@OP, I'm calling flop and going from there.
Ok but without info u cant assume he 3bet so light
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:12 PM   #13
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Re: 10NL -should JJ 4bet here?

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Originally Posted by ScoopMonkey View Post
Really disagree with folding flop. If he has a bluff range pre (which he likely does) he's going to c-bet almost 100% of the time on that flop. It's pretty standard to call one street imo.
4 bet no, only 7 hands but SB seems tight plus, he 3 bet UTG open and without info i assign him narrow range i say QQ+ AQs+ , with JJ i prefer call, u have position, that flop is good only 1 overcard but again his range crush your hand, vs that range your equity is only 17% , ok his range could be more wide, we can ad AQo JJ maybe TT KQ (i dont think)
your equity is about 27% so fold is correct move

there are so many K in his range plus, QQ+ crush JJ. If you call and turn comes 7d and he bet again? whats your move? call again and on the river 8?
for me fold is an EV move
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