Tuning in to random pro Russian Zerg (there's been, like, no English language Zerg streamers playing multiplayer since LotV came out, unless I've just been unlucky with the times I've looked, everyone's either dead or playing the campaign) and he's trying to take his third against Protoss. As his hatch is like half done, he goes over with some lings and sees two pylons ready for warpins, a mothership core, and two zealots. Upon his attack being discovered, the mship core overcharges both pylons.
I might have to change my answer to pylon overcharge being the dumbest thing in the game that gets the first nerf. Balance issues aside, it's just so ****ing stupid above all else.
Seems like a hyper-macro map for being 2 players, given that you can take 3 bases super easily and the 4th and 5th aren't all that difficult either (though the 4th is vulnerable to races that can establish a presence on the high ground above it). Probably good for Zerg overall.
So the third and fourth are both a little exposed, but are both gold bases? Seems good for Zerg if they can establish it, but even better for Protoss oracle/phoenix openers in PvZ that allow them to secure a fast third.
I saw some people theorizing about Zerg build orders (like, the very first steps) so I thought I'd try a few ways to get to 17 supply and then see how many minerals I have at 1:30. This methodology could totally be flawed (like, doesn't measure how many larva you have or how much closer you are to having more larva spawn), I haven't thought it through super close.
I did a comparison with...
13 overlord/17 hatch/18 pool (which, and I'm completely taking that thread's word for it, is apparently standard meta)
something this guy saw Life do: 16 hatch (from double extractor trick), 15 overlord, 15 pool
For my benchmark, I decided to drone up to 30 supply including two queens when the pool finishes and see where we were at 3:00.
- hatch goes down 0:52
- queens finish at 2:40
- 30 supply hit at 2:21
- about 1200 minerals at 3:00
- hatch goes down 0:42 (10s faster)
- queens finish at 2:33 (7s faster)
- 30 supply hit at 2:23 (2s slower)
- about 1170 minerals at 3:00 (30 less)
I was surprised that for the corners the latter build cuts, it wasn't very far behind economically and might even be a win overall. The hatch finishing faster, and the faster queens, seem like a huge win for defending against early harass or cheese. It doesn't put you behind in drone count (although some of those drones are catching up on the back end maybe, which I guess results in slightly fewer minerals) and the amount of minerals you're down seems negligible.
One factor that I think plays in a lot is that going 17/18, you need to build an overlord at 21 to not get supply blocked at 22. Going 16/15, your hatchery finishes (giving you 6 more supply now in LotV instead of 2 likebefore) before you hit that 22 supply block, meaning that you don't need to make that next overlord until 26. That probably is what helps the drone production catch up.
Anyway, I'm still too chicken to go play ladder and lose 20 games until I figure out what's going on, but hopefully you Zergs find this interesting and maybe try it out.
Playing Ladder this early and running into professionals at the "Gold" level is half the fun.
You can tell your grandkids that you once played against Polt on the ladder and "almost pulled it out in the end." They have no way of knowing that in reality he just proxy'd you with 3 rax, pulled half his SCVs, and you folded like a cheap blanket.
^ ShoutCraft Invitational II day 1 VOD, though you have to subscribe ($5, and you can go to your subscriptions and hit "don't renew" afterwards) to watch it, but **** it I'm hungry to see how some pros are playing LotV.
Invitational tournament, round of 8 is:
- Zest vs Bomber
- Solar vs Stork
- Rogue vs TY
- Byun (!!!) vs Parting
Most amusing moment so far is, Solar vs Stork game 2 (spoiler, but that game isn't terribly worth watching):
Stork has a bunch of adepts and shades them all forward, presumably to get a scout of what his opponent is up to. Obviously (I would hope) he intends to cancel the shade.
He fails to cancel, all his adepts die, and Solar basically amoves to win.
From what I've seen they're very effective against mutas. I'm not sure if the raven nerfs will be enough to make corruptors (which probably would fight well against liberators if you don't let them clump up) viable against mech, they definitely weren't in HotS.
Played a few archon mode games with bobman. I think the hardest part, certainly for Zerg, is that when he was playing the macro side and I was controlling our army, control groups are separate between players. So, there's no way for him to make some units and then add them to a control group that I'm microing, or anything like that. (I say hardest for Zerg because we only have one production facility, a hatchery, so it's not like I can make units while he makes workers)
It didn't matter too much as we steamrolled our opponents who were all really bad, but I think figuring out the optimal way to deal with that would be important once we start playing better people.
bobman, having now seen the power of liberators in action, I'm not so sure you want vikings over them in TvT - liberators are really fast so vikings can't kite effectively, and I had a group of corruptors get decimated by about 1/3 or 1/4 as many liberators in a game today. You have to, like, magic box or something, otherwise air units naturally clump up.
I held a Terran to 3 bases most of the game (he mined from a couple different 4th locations a little bit before I shut them down) while I basically took the whole map after wiping his army once, but he rebuilt like 8 liberators and it became hard as **** to actually finish the game off. Part of it was me not engaging that great but they're really hard to kill if your main comp is ling bane muta.
I've been having some issues with the game.
-far worse performance than HOTS, and I have a decent machine
-I've had long wait times for placement matches at team games, are people just not playing?
-Crashed my comp a few times
Mine's been running more smoothly than HOTS if anything. I do not have a decent machine and have always played with everything on the lowest settings though, so our situations are likely not comparable.