o.O

the problem w/ sc2 is that its very hard to maintain balance between races while also making changes to keep the game fresh and exciting.

in a game like dota2, you can make a hero OP as **** but its fine because both teams have access to the same hero pool and heroes can be banned out. thats why they can make significant changes to a ton of heroes every 6 months or so.

i think a cool idea would be to force players to random their race. maybe to start its just a novelty tournament or something but i think having players play multiple races is a way to increase the skill cap of the game. maybe random races isn't the best way to go about this (brings a higher luck factor of which race you get). maybe you can do something more like you pick your opponent's race. if everyone needed to learn all the matchups, there would be more emphasis on strategy and tactics than on mechanics which imo is more exciting and fun.

or totally change the stats and costs of units, add a couple more units/remove units, etc, every couple months just to totally **** all over the metagame and make it always fun and interesting to try to figure out

Or release a $40 expansion every year because gamers are full of money that just needs to be milked

the problem with this is that if players only play 1 race each then there's massive potential for one race to become strongly overpowered. thats why i think to be able to tinker with units fairly regularly you need players to be capable of playing multiple races.

Yeah, and I should add that **** would have to be balanced/patched weekly

of course this would never work with loltard david kim who is probably still refusing to buff native americans in the wild west indian wars, but if things change all the time, it's unlikely that any really really strong metagame would develop, which would make it harder for any once race to be way OP.

Do u guys think SC2 is too macro-intensive?

Brood War is so much micro; meanwhile, SC2 like 4/5 of the **** you do all game is just macro macro macro. Mules and larvae and chrono and taking your expansions at the proper time and defending them and getting your tech up properly and making sure your money is low and you're producing out of all of your buildings all the time and after all of that, at some point....oh okay now finally some army action. And at the lower levels where I'm at and where a lot of players are at, many times that means 2 deathballs A-moving into each other and then one of them dies and the game is over. That's not exciting, not nearly as exciting as a bunch of micro like brood war

i don't know if it's too macro intensive- what i do know is that for the most part, it's way too generous to turtle-y players that sit on their 3 bases and don't move out until they have a max. this just makes for ****ing boring games. i miss when in BW there would be constant skirmishes in multiple areas of the map where players' supplies would constantly be in the 80-130 range instead of ZOMG 200/200 vs 200/200...let's see who can remax faster

I think that macro matters more because of how much more effective time spent on macro is. Like in Brood War, there was basically marginal utility of extra units past a certain supply because you could only group 12 units at a time, so even if you had more units you wouldn't be able to do much as much with them. You also had to individually select buildings to construct units and individually rally workers to mine. The players' time/apm wasn't worth it after a certain peak because of the inefficiency and micro became more beneficial because casters/special abilities were stronger and a-move AI was awful. In SC2, a lot of the macro time/apm efficiency is so much better and micro AI has improved too (a-move target prioritization, larger control groups, tabbing through groups, shift-clicking) so it's better to just focus on macro since you gain more out of it than spending the extra effort to micro better.

schu, isnt that a pretty poor case of not needing to micro? =x

just cause 2 people cant micro doesnt mean its not a thing.

i think what ak13 said is quite true, but it doesnt mean there is a cap on apm. in an even battle, the person with better micro will ALWAYS win. just because the next level isnt always attainable doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I never tried to argue that micro wasn't a thing, wtf

My argument is basically that your time/clicks/focus/energy/whatever might be spent like 60/40 in favor of macro in sc2 whereas it might have been 40/60 in brood war. These numbers being purely made up but I'm just trying to make a point

Oh my god I just laughed out loud so hard at work

thank you schu

well you said it was too macro intensive, which should mean that micro is less important, no?

if you play at 60 apm, then yes, probably 50 are better spent on macro. if you have 300 apm, only so much can be allocated on macro, the rest is spent microing. thats the inherent nature of the game.

there will be a day when you lol at dropping 2 spots while your army pushes the front, and when that day comes you will see what micro can be.

my point was the game has zero limiting factors on your micro. when you are able to push them further and further, you start to see how open it is. not saying its like bw micro, but its certainly not 200/200 armies a moving into the middle.

I can get with this. I think devs felt it would be more exciting to get to maxed armies quicker, plus more viewer friendly cuz of shorter games, but really it just makes the games more uniform.

Exactly, it's Nebraska. There's way too much money and fan support in this program to be settling for batting .500 against decent teams and never winning a game that actually matters. Plenty of great coaches out there, you can start up in Boise where Chris Petersen beats Oregons and Va Techs of the world with 2 stars. Native Scott Frost ain't doing too bad for himself either. Pat Fitzgerald outcoaches Pelini on a yearly basis. I'd welcome Einhorn's former coach at Miami, Al Golden. Charlie Strong doing big things at a basketball school. If you want me to name coaches who are better than Pelini we are gonna be here for a week.

^^ exactly. somewhere along the way artosis and idra convinced everyone that if its not a macro game its not a "real" or "skillful" game. even blizzard bought into it. instead of actually tweaking the units to give each race more viable options they just decided to make every map gigantic so you can't attack.

Good luck hiring Chris Peterson or pat Fitzgerald, lol

And Charlie strong and al golden have such a brilliant track record of championship success....

Scott frost - something tells me he'll be our head coach in 5-7 years

Anyone who liked Brood War should note that someone's compiled a torrent on TL of pretty much every OSL game ever, weighs in at 300 gig

Word is Chris Petersen was VERY interested in the NU job. Hopefully thats still the case after Bo finally gets fired.

What do you expect Strong and Golden to do at Louisville and Temple, win national titles? Golden just now got to a program where that's semi-realistic, though the sanctions make even that distinction iffy. They need a chance first. Bo had his chance, no meaningful wins in 5 years and he didn't lack for opportunities. Time to give someone else that chance.

As for Frost, we can only hope...

Yeah and Idra's games were the most boring imaginable...

The way the game is set up right now make it so both players just macro for 15-minutes and the whole game usually comes down to minor unit composition choices and spellcaster micro. That can get rather dull for sure.

i'd love to see some old maps make a comeback with some minor tweaks. xelnaga caverns comes to mind. if you change the gold base to a normal base and remove the destructible rocks blocking the path to the 3rd i think it could be a nice small map. you can take expansions but you have to work like hell to defend them. there need to be more maps like that. right now every map its so easy to get up to 3 bases.

lol... you would lose literally every PvZ as you can`t expand there.

Haha, for the 2v2 players out there

Still curious for this

I am the ****ing king of losing unlosable games

I would like to see a remastered scrap station