Don't logic me! But seriously, I think that with some minor modifications, they're great for creating back and forth non-deathball engagements.

What if they reduced the cool down of widow mines slightly and made them invis only when they were off cool down?

I'm sure building 10 tanks won't help your winrate in TvP either, but it doesn't make tanks imba in TvZ. Note that T only made 10+ WMs in 40% or less of the high-level matches. That suggests that either a lot of GMs aren't pursuing the freewin strategy, or that zerg can do something to counter or prevent mass WM play.

I'd be willing to bet that if you checked that stat in all non mirror matchups, you won't see a discrepancy like that for any tier 2 or lower unit.

You don't think Z wins 60% of games where they make 10 infestors?

I don't actually. It would be nice to know otherwise, though.

Edit: need to adjust the greater than number so there's a reasonable similarity of infestor to widow mine to void ray, etc.

I think the void ray comparison is probably closer than infestor tbh.

I would bet Protoss has an astonishingly high win rate in games where they make at least 10 void rays, no matter what the matchup- and it has nothing at all to do with the strength of the void ray (you could look at WoL stats and I'd bet it's very similar).

HotS is way to early in the metagame to be thinking how the last ~10 posts are.

I watched the stephano game and yeah its ****ing ******ed how many mines dude made, but if he had made like 10 mutas and countered in there somewhere, imo, it would have changed the game a lot.

You know what units are really good against mutas?

It doesn't matter, that stat is literally meaningless. It's all because of unmentioned, highly correlated variables.

I don't know if widow mines are OP, but that's not proof that they are or might be.

not controlling for every single variable doesn't make a stat meaningless.

Tru, but this isn't one of those scenarios. It's too complex of an issue and we know nothing else about the sample really.

Ah I see, so they are using data form replays people upload to the their site, interesting.

whats a widow mine

more mutas?

I would bet that Blizzard never intended widow mines to be amassed like that.

1. Reduce the range significantly. Mines are meant to be walked on, not to just be within a large range of.
2. Add a cooldown upon burrow.
3. Disable widow mines upon detection.
4. Require a hotkey to activate like the baneling.
5. Reduce damage done to air units.

I think I've forgotten a few other changes, but take your pick.

Oh yeah, spider mines in BW didn't have equal or larger range than lots of ranged units (marines, hellions/hellbats, roaches, hydras w/o range cannot kill mines without taking hits)

I'd like to see Widow Mines having to be actively detonated instead of automatic. Stephano said he'd be fine with widow mines as they are if they required the same amount of micro he's required of in dealing with them.

i think thats a pretty poor argument. there certainly isnt a micro-usage balance across plenty of other units. i also dont get why there isnt more discussion of proper counters instead of just immediately saying nerf nerf nerf

Next you'll be telling us they ought to reduce the movement speed of marines to .45 because that's how fast infested terrans go.

I don't quite get that analogy. I was comparing spider and widow mines cause of eifer's post.

Spider mines and ITs are both free units.

Ah, gotcha. Still, I have a hard time imagining qxc winning that game if he had to send vultures around the map to lay (immovable) mines down (for free) in the places he was just walking them to.

in BW you got 3 spider mines for 75 minerals tho + the vulture that is also a good unit (with a very small upgrade, like 100/100)

hard to say a widowmine shouldn't be better when it costs more than 3x as much

Name a unit that widows aren't good against...

#3 is a horrible idea imo. Rest is good imo. Especially 5. It's a ****ing joke that one shot from a widow mine insta kills an oracle.

what tilts me most is comparing widow mines to banelings

they are similar, except the widow mine is better in all cases

widow mines: 75/25, 125 dmg, 40 splash, automatically burrow, dont die upon attack, can hit air, they are speedy as ****, cant hit buildings, has friendly fire but doesnt 1-hit SCVs

banelings: 50/25, a lot less damage, need to upgrade burrow, die upon attack, can only attack ground, slow without expensive 150/150 upgrade, can hit buildings, no friendly fire

im sure im missing stuff also. but just look at cost efficiency of the widow mine compared to baneling.
widow mines cost 75/25 and can 1shot units that are way more expensive, 100/100 muta, 125/50 stalker, can kill up to like 10-12 lings/workers, and can keep doing it
every single shot is cost-efficient, and they can often-times get more than one shot off.

in ZvT i never go ling/bane/muta anymore cuz of widow mines. theyre too hard to kill, much easier to go roach/hydra against them, then take a few punches in the roaches which luckily dont get one shot.
too tilting to see 10+ banelings which cost 500/250+ get one shot by a unit that costs 75/25 and can burrow in time even when a bunch of speedlings are gunning for it


alkjsdhflajshdfklahjdnfkfd