Random is the new protoss.

poor goofy =(

bitch is playing hard to get...

Goofy and I met on the ladder once again, and I have evened the series.

In the game right after that, I won a ~40 minute TvZ (not against rageotones, against a random) where I wound up taking like 5 bases on Daybreak. That was an interesting one.

Gospy, drop some PvP knowledge on me. When is it safe to expand? I feel like PvP is more dependent on scouting and knowing what your opponent is up to than other matchups. But I'm trying to get away from 4gating every game in PvP, and it seems like being the first to expand is kinda dangerous (not like Terran, where you can 1 rax FE and still hold basically all early aggression), if your opponent can just go 3 gate robo or 4 gate and just win (I tried a 2 gate expand yesterday and lost to a push with a couple immortals and more stalkers than I could handle after my opponent scouted my expo).

Also, to continue spamming the thread: anyone know how to interpret this **** about the order in which your units will attack stuff on a-move? I feel like in the game, your units will target workers over buildings, but this OTP thing is confusing me (workers have 10 OTP, buildings have 11 ATP, wouldn't buildings be favored? is OTP only used to compare with other units, and not buildings? if so, isn't it kind bad that your units would treat probes and static defenses with the same priority? from experience, don't worker priorities change depending whether they're mining or attacking you?).

OTP is used before ATP, but because almost everything has an OTP value of 0, the ATP takes priority.

That's why ATP for buildings is 11, so that the OTP of workers at 10 overrides the ATP of 11 first.

If you're attacking buildings (ATP 11) and a marine pops out (ATP 20), it'll automatically target the marine because the marine has a higher ATP.

So it's OTP then ATP. With an OTP of 0, the ATP takes priority, and from that it's the higher ATP that get targeted first.

Why does OTP of 10 override ATP of 11 if OTP 0 means "use the ATP value" ?

Also, I've had multiple Protosses try to FFE against me in the last couple days. When I'm Terran. Is this some hot new trend? I 4raxed both games and won easily.

Because OTP is 10 and not 0. OTP = override, so it overrides or always takes priority if it's a value > 0.

If it was ATP of 10, then the ATP of 11 would take priority.

Goofy if I were you I would just keep 4 gating every PvP. You aren't at a point yet were your opponent can hold a well executed 4 gate and you want to be able to have a well executed 4 gate as a build in your back pocket. It will help your micro and your macro a lot even for other matchups. You want to get used to a high level of crisp-ness to be able to pull off some other builds and the simpler you start the easier it is to fully understand.

If you think you are able to pull off a really good 4 gate, that's different, but you'd have to say so.

Are you terran or random? If you are random, they may be fools. If you're terran, a Nexus first with a forge after is a style that can work if the entrance to the nat is wide open enough.

I'm random, they're fools. Even vs T I don't know how that would work though, can't they get too many marines before you have an army? If you build too many cannons at your nat can't they get a medivac and crush your main?

Gospy - sounds reasonable, I guess I'll keep 4gating for a bit.

FFE vs Terran seems pretty dumb given how much players have been 1 base helion dropping, right?

I allin TvP and ive never lost to a nexus first build

Really? What kind of all in? Nexus first is pretty good vs a lot of all ins.

wat

Nexus forge specifically is a build order loss against 13 refinery.

I get that you guys are on a diff level than me at understanding SC2, so let me explain my confusion.

wrt "nexus first is good against a lot of all ins": watching GSL or whatever tournaments, the casters always talk about nexus first as this mythical yeti that's never been seen in the wild as anything other than a hoax, because it loses, always. And if I was going to punish an insanely greedy opening, I feel like an all in (sacrificing an economy for a big early game army, because I know my opponent won't have one) is the best way to do that. What am I missing?

and wrt bobman's post, I don't get why nexus anything specifically isn't a build order loss against "lots of barracks and marines off 1 base". Is the hope that Toss could at least get enough sentries out to FF and hold if they get a core + gas in time?

It's possible the nexus first commentary I'm referring to is only PvP and not PvT - are there any PvT games you guys can think of where someone goes nexus first? I'd love to watch and see how T reacts.

I'll admit I haven't kept up with all the strats as much as I used to, but this was definitely not true a few months ago. Though I never build a forge. I acknowledge that it's playable I just don't like it as much. Nexus first is great vs 1-1-1 type all ins and provided you have decent stalker micro/map awareness you can hold early barracks pushes if you aren't super close.

It's not something I would do all the time, but given good map conditions it's far from a build order loss vs anything.

There was a good example Huk vs MKP in GSL a long time ago but I can't remember the season. It was on Xel Naga Fortress.

As far as PvP goes it's suicide, but you can get away with a blind one gate expand vs some builds (robo builds) but you are gambling. I'd rather just not play PvP.

Nexus first (forge or otherwise) can hold against many REACTIVE all ins in PvT, ie. you considered 1 rax expoing, but then see what he's doing and change your mind. This is due to warp ins and the time it takes for terran to make infrastructure, among other things. Nexus forge is especially good against your idea of tons of marines on 1 base, since I can scout you, keep a guy outside your base, and make extra cannons when you move out. Tech is delayed though. Marines against gateway/cannon (esp if I have guardian shield) will get demolished. When I said nexus forge should be used on a map with a good choke/ramp into the natural, it's for the cannons and sentries to really make the toss efficient against barracks pressure (especially with pulled SCVs). Entombed is a decent example of that.

13 refinery is supposed to be a counter to nexus forge because the frontal defense can be reactively negated with a medivac. Something like a hellion/marine elevator should be a kill (as we know, marines with a medivac rape gateway units)

A protoss player needs to scout diligently to be well prepared against aggression or see if they are safe while doing nexus first. Nexus first in PvP is known as a mythical thing since there is no defender advantage in PvP, and there's no way to defend yourself against aggression if you go nexus first.

1 rax in the main, 2 proxy'd + scv pull

That's so easily scouted though.