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03-20-2012 , 03:09 PM
very cool gospy! keep us updated.
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03-20-2012 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thamel18
I don't veto any maps. Which ones should I as P? The ones without ramps near my expansions? Also, at the end of that game, Karak's gonna Karak.
I disagree with GGI vetoing metal. Metal is a decent toss map if you can macro well off 3 base and FF. I play almost exclusively ZvPs and sometimes ZvZs on Metal. Bad terrans struggle on this map, but if a T has metal unvetoed, he knows what he's doing. Metal is a T favored map in ZvT if your opponent is skilled. Splitting the map is just too easy and the existence of the gold on ladder really shifts it in the T's direction. That said, taking advantage of this requires a T with very good macro.

In ZvP you just gotta be careful of letting Z take a gold. Wall off your 3rd completely with buildings and cannons and try and control the gold/middle of the map with colossus. DTs are also very effective on this map as is warp prism play.

Z's 3rd is also a pretty good spot to harass. Warp prism + zeals in the main with units pushing the nat and then sending zealots or DTs into the 3rds and 4ths can create hell. You'll note that Losira and Nestea play mass spine turtle hard on Metal, which can be exploited by warp prism play and blinks to the main.

Speaking from a ZvP perspective:

If I were Toss, I'd veto: Khoral for sure (unless you are very confident in your 2 base timings over a long spawn distance). The 3rd is extremely difficult for Toss to take. That said, once Toss secures the 3rd, the rest of the map favors them. But hell if I'm letting that happen. It does seem unfair.

Maybe Antiga? The gold favors Z, as does the really easy 3rd. HOWEVER, 2 base timings are, as usual, very strong on this map into the 3rd base and it's an easyish 3rd for Toss to take. Problem is a tough 4th while Z has map control and can take random 4ths anywhere.

Maybe Cloud? Again, a tough 4th for Toss to take. Lots of attack angles for Z. If Z is 2 basing, it's going to be very hard to break him.

From my (limited) knowledge of ZvT):

Shattered seems like a good 1/1/1 map. Cloud Kingdom is just a great T map for lots of reasons in all match-ups. Sort of a **** map, really.
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03-20-2012 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak
I disagree with GGI vetoing metal. Metal is a really good toss map if you can macro well off 3 base and FF.

GGI does not compute.
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03-20-2012 , 03:48 PM
Also Karak, would you say spawning horizontal from your opponent is the problem in entombed (You're both expanding to one another for your 3rd) Anyways, I like your analysis, I may just veto the 2 player maps since I don't like no scouting cheeses (Ie. proxy 2 gate, cannon rush) even if I do well against them.
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03-20-2012 , 03:51 PM
Yeah vertical spawn entombed isn't great, but isn't nearly as bad. Against T it's a nightmare, as it is on all maps with close spawn. I've been all-inning Ts on Antiga if they are close or vertical spawn. The fact that siege tanks can hit my 3rd from his main is just truly amazing map design. Hatch first bling bust is really strong on that map tho as lots of Ts like to 1 rax expand or CC first. Mass speedling off a 15 hatch can also crush CC first pretty hard. If they open gas (I send a quick scout so I can determine what type of all-in I'm doing), the 28/28 supply roach warren into roach/ling all-in is really strong on Antiga.

I don't think 2 player maps are all that bad for cheese. Cloud or Khoral don't really seem like good maps for proxy gate or stuff like that. The spawn distance in Khoral is REALLY long (takes forever to get a probe and get gates going) and the same thing sort of applies for Cloud. + I just send my OL straight at the Protoss nat on both maps so I see a lot. My second OL is also going straight at their main. I'll have good map vision.

Finally, if you drone scout their main, you'll be able to scout a proxy by omission... meaning if you don't see anything in their main it's probably somewhere else. Then you can prepare accordingly.

Against Ts, I do send a scout a little bit earlier and check for proxy rax in my 3rd on Cloud and Khoral. Also will tap on the closest tower on the way to the T base. This is pretty standard on almost all maps where an 11/11 is viable, tho (aka ALL maps ever haha). I have never encountered proxy cheese on either of these maps the entire season.

I got 11/11'd on Metal last night. He blind guessed the rax build close to my base too. He sucked tho so he lost. Putting time in on the Korean server has made me pretty good at dealing with 11/11 and 2 rax pressure w/ 3-5 SCVs pulled. It's like 1 out of every 2 games there. It's never a question of IF they are proxying a rax. It's a question of where they are putting it.
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03-20-2012 , 03:57 PM
Lots of Toss I encounter on Khoral are either doing a 2 base sentry heavy push into the 3rd (it's a really nice choke to attack into... I spread lots of creep to try to prevent that from happening) OR a 1 base blink build.

I wouldn't play for 3 bases if I were a toss on that map... and given the long spawn distance and effectiveness of spine crawlers for defense + mutas for making their life hell, I'd prob just veto it. The 3rd is so hard to take in ZvP. I don't lose to Toss often there.

I don't use these builds, but gold base bane busts on Metal and Antiga are also stupidly strong vs Toss. Golds really need to be removed from the game. The mule nerf was nice, but planetary fortresses and siege tanks still give Ts a huge advantage with golds. Map control and the ball nature of Protoss give Zs an advantage w/ golds on many maps + the obvious all-in stuff that they can be used for.
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03-20-2012 , 06:58 PM
Brag: Passed my oral qualifying exam.

Beat: I can be an idiot at times.

Variance: Questions that I had no clue on the answer.
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03-20-2012 , 07:00 PM
im sure you did pass your... oral qualifying exam
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03-20-2012 , 07:00 PM
You taught me how to do that well.
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03-20-2012 , 07:05 PM
^.^
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03-20-2012 , 08:21 PM
Hey karak, at your level, what do your typical Protoss opponents open? Is it predominantly FFE? If so, how do they transition/pressure your third? If it's gateway style expo, how do they act afterwards? I use vVvTime's 2 gate FE quite a bit and like it (Love the amount of scouting info w/ hallu), but don't know if I'm getting too far behind on probes for safety or what. Also, what do you have trouble with, or do you feel that protoss mid game is quite standardized? Sorry if these questions suck terribly, but feel free to answer in PM or BM me if you see it fit.
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03-20-2012 , 08:54 PM
kids these days have no spine. When I talk **** to someone after the game, i unclick the autoblock thing so i can listen to them talk **** back. These clowns call you a bitch, then click the block button. Buncha pansys.
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03-20-2012 , 08:55 PM
90% of my ZvPs are FFE

I think Time FFEs nearly every map now too (altho he doesn't play as much).

I actually sort of get annoyed facing gateway expand simply because I face it so infrequently that I don't know what to do to it. I usually get a quick ling speed, take a 5:30 3rd and go to lair at like 8-830 depending on what I'm seeing, but it's still not as comfortable for me.

2 gate expand isn't very good I think. Just go 1 gate expand and chronoboost sentries out of your gateway (rather than chronoing warpgate... then throw down 2-3 more gates after your nexus goes up as part of a wall at your nat). I see this most often on Metal because some Toss don't like having to build 2 cannons as part of an FFE on that map. But on nearly every single other map it's FFE.

I copied my build vs FFE almost entirely from DRG MLG Winter Arena replays, with some tweaks to account for the fact that I'm slower than him and can't read scouting info as well (so I play a little safer). And by slower and not as well, I mean I look like someone with a mental disability compared to him.

I then defend any 2 base pressures with roach/ling and, assuming I survive, transition accordingly. My preferred transition is muta/ling (typically vs. robo play or a greedy 3rd such as one taken off 4 gates and +1). If it's on a map where I feel like I can just kill him, I'll sometimes just go massive burrow move roach or roach/hydra, but mutaling is the safest. Mutas to the main, roaches/lings to the 3rd and if the map allows for it occasionally I'll attack the nat, the 3rd and the main all at the same time. I take a 4th while all of this is happening.

If I can keep him contained to 2 bases (on maps like Khoral many times the game plays out with the Protoss just stranded in his nat/main and maxing out there), then I'm taking a 4th, building 23423 spines and going for a base trade. As soon as he moves out I spine up my main, my nat, my 3rd, hell whatever I want and base trade. If he has a 2 base army he's not going to win the base trade ever unless I make a very, very bad mistake.

If he secures a 3rd, I desperately try to deny his 4th and depending on his tech and the map I may still continue on muta/ling and go for a base trade. However, the optimal transition is to infestor/BL/corruptor. I'm just really bad at that. the protoss is going to want to go mothership/archon/storm off of 4 base w/ 3-5 colossus.

vs. gateway expand you are going to either see a 6 gate or a 7 gate blink push (both with or without observer or immortals depending) or, most commonly, prob a 4 gate 3rd. 6 gate and 7 gate off gateway expand just aren't very strong if I take a quick 3rd. I always have a pack of 15-20 lings sitting outside his base if he hasn't FFE'd and that delays him from moving out for a long time. Vs this play I usually go ling/hydra to hold off any 2 base pushes and then transition into muta or roach/hydra or whatever depending on his comp.

karakian zvp loss 1

this guy i played last night was really, really good and i definitely liked his build. that said, if this weren't my last game of the night and i wasnt on monkey tilt and tired, im pretty sure i should have won. his big push comes at the 21 min mark and i could have had bl/infestor out by then. he micro'd pretty well tho despite losing a couple HTs for free and really put on a clinic here i think on how to deal with someone who goes mass muta play without transitioning into bl/infestor (read: a bad player like myself)

i also took my lair way too early

http://drop.sc/139277

game 2

here's a really nice 2 base build that creamed me yesterday when i misread it and stopped droning too early. really great play with the warp-ins on the high ground taxing my multi-tasking and causing me to inefficiently split my units. i stood no chance vs this guy. i have no idea why i was playing someone this good. my mind just melted trying to keep up with what he was doing.

http://drop.sc/139279

game 3

here's time making a massive comeback vs me from last week. he was all but dead and i managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ill disclaim this with it was my first game of the day :-P

http://drop.sc/139281

so there, 3 karakian zvp losses :-P

Last edited by Karak; 03-20-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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03-20-2012 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by costanza_g
kids these days have no spine. When I talk **** to someone after the game, i unclick the autoblock thing so i can listen to them talk **** back. These clowns call you a bitch, then click the block button. Buncha pansys.
Such a troll baiter.
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03-20-2012 , 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by costanza_g
kids these days have no spine. When I talk **** to someone after the game, i unclick the autoblock thing so i can listen to them talk **** back. These clowns call you a bitch, then click the block button. Buncha pansys.
i was raging hard yesterday. i normally never rage at opponents or message them after the game, but i was life tilting pretty hard. i have it set so only friends can message me. trololol. u mad bro?
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03-20-2012 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
Such a troll baiter.
Got to, this america man.
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03-20-2012 , 10:04 PM
Why does karak refuse to recognize that mules have been nerfed on gold patches?

He continues to claim gold is a huge advantage for T even after the patch and I just don't get it?

As a lowly silver I say this fully aware that I may be missing something...
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03-20-2012 , 10:10 PM
because T can expand to gold spots which are exposed since expanding towards an enemy is better for T while it is not for the other races. siege tanks and polonotories cover them quite well.

golds are also a better advantage for Zs as well, as ive said many times, in ZvPs.
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03-21-2012 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak
because T can expand to gold spots which are exposed since expanding towards an enemy is better for T while it is not for the other races. siege tanks and polonotories cover them quite well.

golds are also a better advantage for Zs as well, as ive said many times, in ZvPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loK2thabrain
As a lowly silver I say this fully aware that I may be missing something...
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03-21-2012 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loK2thabrain
Why does karak refuse to recognize that mules have been nerfed on gold patches?

He continues to claim gold is a huge advantage for T even after the patch and I just don't get it?

As a lowly silver I say this fully aware that I may be missing something...
Golds favor races that use a more mineral-heavy composition and races that can hold those expos more easily. They could fix the first by adding rich gases to the gold bases, but the second isn't so easily remedied.
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03-21-2012 , 02:37 AM
Grats gospers ^^.



Brag: Quit lawl.
Beat: Didn't reach my ranked goal.
Variance: DOTA 2
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03-21-2012 , 10:32 AM
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03-21-2012 , 12:17 PM
That is the ugliest kpop chick you've ever posted.
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03-21-2012 , 01:20 PM











Spoiler:
All the same girl, you crazy.
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03-21-2012 , 02:57 PM
she's making a wierd face in the first one.
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