20 minutes should be more than enough time to build up a sufficient army.

How dare you disagree with my hyperbole.

This type of thinking really really bothers me, he's just talking out of his ass.

It's very simple. The mule allows you to have about 25-30% more mineral income on one base. That additional income is converted to pure dps units, marines. It's the staple of that build, it's what's left at the end and what will be left in the second push if there is one.

Sure you can hold it on one base but it requires you to scout perfectly(to not fall behind to fe), to have perfect unit composition(since you have less stuff anything less than perfect is suicide) and to have perfect micro(again, less stuff, you have to be flawless).

Tyler is looking at it too narrowly imo. It is possible to hold with a 1 gate stargate, but that is just lower EV both against a 1-1-1 and against the entire current range of T openings imo. There is a reason you never/rarely see it. If you stay on one base, you will always be behind in income. It's just not smart.

Also he is relying on the T not being smart enough to contain you, which is even worse.

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wh, the way I deal with it is to just 1 gate expand, chrono out like 3-4 stalkers then transition into 4 gate robo and adjust from there. I think 4 gate robo is the most versatile 2 base PvT you can hope to achieve vs a fast factory. Tbh I don't really care if he makes a raven or anything. That doesn't bother me. I'm happy if he goes cloak. So nerfing those things doesn't do much imo.

I try not to make any more than the 3-4 stalkers I originally made until I clean up the non banshee part of his attack. Mostly zealot/sentry/immortal.

i don't mean to drop them on top of the tanks. thats too risky. i don't see why you can't just drop them to the side, wait for his marines to move forward, send the immortals in and FF the marines away. obviously you need some micro/multitasking but it seems feasible to me.

This is so true. But try explaining the concept of "1 gate star's EV against Terran's opening range" to anyone on TL and they'll say something like "herp derp that's theorycrafting. you don't know what you're talking about bronze scrub."

In addition to this, Tyler is saying people should 1 gate robo or 1 gate stargate to get more information so that they can properly respond.

Well, you can go 1 gate FE and know almost 100% that youropponent is going 1-1-1, so I don't think his point makes any sense. Plus, all of the games I've seen tyler play in the last 6 months he gets steamrolled by T players who have more econ than him after going 1 rax FE against his 2 gate robo expand.

It is absolutely feasible. The truth is you can't beat an equal terran army straight up due to strong synergy between the units and tanks. Getting caught in a choke or even an equal concave is a losing prospect. Separating and flanking them is how you beat them, and that's definitely the strongest way to do it. However, there is a heavy opportunity cost in getting a warp prism of 200min and 50s of production time, though it's probably the most efficient way to clean up the tanks and really remove the teeth from strong arm marine/tank/banshee attacks. It seems like a proxy pylon is a soft way to do it, as it would take probably 2 rounds of warp ins to possibly be able to flank the tanks.

no way the warp prism thing works. they die ****ing instantly. all you need is like 2 marines shooting it. plus the time and opportunity cost of building that out of a robo is almost certainly not worth another immortal imo.

ummm.....move it so they don't see it?

Yeah. The "safe" style may have worked in BW where you could make up for the edge you sacrificed by having superior mechanics, but I don't think it works in SC2.

If BW is like deep-stacked HU NL Holdem, then SC2 is a 10BB deep shovefest. The edges just aren't the same anymore imo.

i think nullspace is mad -_-

Haha maybe. I don't handle losing too well in Sc2.

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks about SC2 vs BW in terms of the edge you can get over a weaker opponent. It seems like in SC2 the edges are smaller (because the marginal utility of mechanics in SC2 is less than in BW) so that most games are won on strategy and advantages gained by (hard or soft) countering your opponents opening (which is based purely on luck).

just had a terran completely deny all my scouting and then turtle hard on 2 bases and make mass viking/banshee. had at least 3 marines patrolling every cliff along with 1 viking running around making sure none of my ols left my base. obviously saw the banshees early and made mutas but lol at mutas vs mass viking. no chance.

i had 12 mutalisks but it was useless. i managed to get 5 queens up in time but he cloaked all the banshees and focused down all the spores. he also was 0.5 shotting (half his army is all it took) overseers. i was completely clueless. still sort of am. if i dont scout that i honestly have no idea how i can beat it. it was long spawn so getting an ol there just isn't going to happen.

he then transitioned into mass BC, and BCs absolutely rape ground light units such as marines... and hydras. as well as yamato all infestors to one shot them.

but hey, it's not like terran has flexible units or many viable tech paths to worry about. that's only one of like 3 things he can do sort of like protoss. and with really good zerg hatchery tech scouting abilities i should have definitely been able to see it coming.

obviously his army wasn't very mobile, so when he took expos they were vulnerable. he doesnt have a building that does 40 splash damage to all units and plus with his lack of map control with 40 vikings i could surprise him.

darkness

why not go mass ling/bane and just roll right through him?

cuz mules LOL

actually tried this. apparently in the time it takes you to go across an entire map, banshees can kill a metric ****ton of banelings. plus bunkers are really good. it was uber long spawn and he had absolute map control. anything i sent on the ground was nearly entirely dead by time it got there. banshee dps is unreal.

ahh, another box up my overlords with my army and send them all out in the middle of the map to die while im trying to remax for an easy win loss. love those losses. reminds me of how incredibly stupid i am as a person.

at least i didnt do it 2 games in a row lol. that would be really sad to make the exact same mistake against the exact same race and the exact same build and unit twice in a row with the overlords. lol imagine if it were some ****ty low masters player they matched you up against too who did an AWFUL 2 rax that you were loling over until you couldnt make units because 3 overlords were standing in the front corner of your base and then it were a 16 point loss. ESPECIALLY after doing it just the game before. i'd have to be SO ******ed.

edit - i must be on mega tilt. holy ****ing ****. im losing these awful players im favored against. time to quit. old karak would go on to lose a dozen more games

But new Karak won't lose tons of games in a row. I say press your luck.

no u

There needs to be a Karak SC2 QQ blog imo.

i havent hardcore QQ'd more than like 1 post in a while. i just played really complacent and terribly today.

it'd be like a collection of memories

hud