variance - if templar rage here goes as templar rage on the tl open bracket, he gets zenexcore if he wins his first match

Obviously it makes a difference for overall strategy/gameplay but it doesn't make a difference in terms of whether or not it's correct to transfer probes. A protoss wanting to go say 6 gate after FFE shouldn't be transferring more than x-16 workers to his expansion any more than a a protoss who intends to wait until a +3 deathball before any huge aggression should.

No. Mining out is good.

The way I see it is if you have (as an extreme) 50 probes on 1 base, you can only really get about 840minerals/min off one base. Most of those probes are not adding anything.

If you wait until your main base is mined out before you expand and then transfer all 50 probes, you're still only at 840minerals/min.

So to add another base where you're using your workers efficiently and optimally, then mining out sooner doesn't seem like the best way to go about doing things.

If you add another base and transfer out, let's say 25 probes just to make it even, now you're getting double the income. Once you mine out your main then your income will drop so delaying mining out a base seems better. Not that you're reducing the probe count to slow down gathering, but rather that you just want to make sure you're mining to the highest possible efficiency.

That's just how I think about it.

I just played a game against the AI where I expanded after I hit 16 probes on my first base. It felt really smooth in the way of having a continuous income to support my gateways.

You don't want to oversaturate one base to try to mine out but we're not trying to avoid mining out. It is the end goal.

Mining out hurts your economy...why would you want to do that faster?

Mo mineralz

headasplode.

Lol I knew that was coming. Mo problems, mo options

Decently drunk already lol

I just tested out the probe count per base.

24 probes per base x 2 bases = ~1600mins/min
16 probes per base x 2 bases = ~1280mins/min

Seems like a huge difference.

there's already been a bunch of studies done on this on a TL thread somewhere.

zerg mining mechanics are different from the other 2 races and that is, for whatever reason, why zergs will keep their main base at saturation (if it's there) or near saturation and instead of transferring drones, just rally the new ones to the natural until it's balanced at no cost.

Appears to be quite the difference. Each probe after the 16th seems to be half as effective as the initial 16.

I understand what you're saying. I was watching the probes and there are a lot of probes that are just wandering around looking for a mineral patch.

But what is the consensus here? (and I don't know if it's different for zerg) Do we aim for 16 probes per base (on minerals)? Or 24 like is often cited by everyone?

You can't oversimplify like this. It would only come into play way later and would be way less significant than your example. Like willd said, you are better off not losing the minerals early on. It snowballs. If you send the wrong number of workers you will always be mining less efficiently than you could be or you will be giving up mining time for no gain in efficiency. One of those is always true.

Now 18 might be slightly more efficient than 16, I'm not sure. I usually aim to keep 16-18. I can't remember where it starts to diminish. But as long as it's close it's fine.

24 is a waste as long as you have another base. Try it out in your head. Keep 16, send 8. Rally 4 more from each base to the second base. You send 12 total and have 16 at each base. Or, keep 12, send 12. Then rally 4 more from each base to their respective patches. You send 12 total. But for a short time you have only 12 workers mining at your main where you could have 16 and you get no gain over sending all but 16.

Yea but when you hit 46-50 probes you will be looking to take a third or have already taken one. And you have 12 guys on gas.

If you want to 6 gate you will be staying at 40-44 probes. 44 allows 3 on each gas and 16 on each mineral patch. It works out perfectly.

yo pwn maybe you can discuss strat in bbv when you are better than me at sc2 k?

How's the quest for masters going?

About as well as yours.

lol nubs

Karak, how does it make you feel that pwncakery had to quit out of 33% of his matches just to be DEMOTED from Masters, while you just can't seem to break in?

The lull in mineral intake from transferring is a small but significant reason not to transfer workers as well. Time value of money -- sometimes having that extra 150 minerals 10 seconds earlier (by not transferring) can make a difference especially in the early stages of the game.

especially for zerg transferring is typically -EV unless

a) you're already oversaturated at that base

or

b) you're bad like me and will forget to even out your rally points later

slayersdragon demonstrating how difficult terran micro can be (watch his webcam lower right particularly):

Why especially for zerg?