bsball, I just played a very similar game to your Protoss who built a base outside your base, and lost, so I think I underestimated your strategy a bit. He built it far enough out (on Backwater) that his cannons weren't quite in range of my hatch, but he did have me boxed in pretty close, and from there he went stalkers/immortals and would just retreat from fights to shield batteries to heal up and trade absurdly well. I held on for decently long with roach/ravager but it was pretty hard to fight well, and I think the killing blow I needed was some way to get lings into his main (he never expanded) to disrupt his economy - once his production stopped, I could have just out-produced him to win.
The other option, of course, would have been to just react better. I scouted forge first, so if I just took it more seriously (I had a drone on his probe and went pool first so figured that was enough - nope, he had a second probe I didn't see and cannons were finishing when lings came out) I could have stopped it.
edit: looking at the replay my scouting drone saw his 2nd probe, but I didn't see it in the minimap. FAIL. That's for sure the all-hands-on-deck sign.
hm, that's interesting. so did you attempt to break out and failed, or did but still lost the game after?
I couldn't break out. I think I had a late roach warren too - by the time I had enough ravagers to bile down his buildings, he had immortals out which basically meant I was dead.
There are patch changes with mostly just bug/quality of life fixes that included this:
Quote:
Adjusted the art for the Mira’s Marauders Marine skin to help differentiate them from the default Ghost skin.
lol, RIP the one game that the first thing I saw from my Terran opponent was a marine that totally looked like a ghost and I freaked out with spores and spines and ****...only to later realize it was just an annoying marine skin
SortOf's games in the most recent GSL group were pretty good:
Never thought of him as a top-tier guy but game 2 against Zest was probably one of the best-played games by a foreigner against a Korean that I've ever seen.
Tough choice taking a third for Zerg against Terran, the one under your main lets medivacs zip between main and natural in a super annoying and effective way which I always try to avoid, but the other one seems perfectly placed for an early siege tank rush to make it really hard to hold
Looks gimmicky and kind of Scrap Station-like in its base progression - nobody is ever going to take (and hold) the bases in the middle of the map except using the golds in cheese builds
Okay these gold bases were made to troll Zerg - ranged units render them unusable for us, while Zerg has to go roaches (which suck and will get hard countered by immortals in particular) to punish them. Seems pretty huge otherwise.
You probably don't recognize it but this map is currently in its 2nd season in GSL, where it has been vetoed with reckless abandon (probably just because players don't hit it on ladder?). Only 4 player map I can recall in awhile. Seems okay.
Nicely done. One thing you can definitely do is assert your positional advantage defensively, i.e.:
You can reposition spines (or just one, even) to deny both of these buildings from getting up (slight chance the pillar blocks you from getting a spine into the right position to be out of range of the left side), which makes his push harder later on. Also, a creep tumor on the right side of this, behind that pillar (if you can spare the mins for an extra queen or the energy on an existing one instead of an inject) will push creep out into that area to prevent him from building on it.
Solid win though, I'm coming around more to your "base in his base" response to "base outside your base" even though it feels like giving up your bases and having to rebuild in his shouldn't be as effective as it seems to be. Maybe if you nydus and take out his main with a small group of units while leaving other stuff home to defend, you keep your base and get a bigger advantage?
One difference between this game and the one where I lost to this sort of thing - the guy who beat me went gateway heavy before transitioning to immortals (he made a lot of stalkers/zealots that traded really well against spines when retreating to shield batteries).
Last edited by goofyballer; 05-02-2018 at 05:36 PM.
I think I've been playing really, really badly the last couple nights, but it did lead to this one game against a plat Terran where I was fighting off his marine-tank push with, like, 5 mutas trying to overcome 4 stimmed marines that each had a personal medivac to push them back so I could clear the tanks; I lost my natural to go down 2 bases vs 3, but did eventually push back his attack...
Yeah, repositioning spines and moving out creep to block his cannon line is definitely one of those things I should do. Every version of this I've played against where I don't die immediately has my opponent rushing out immortals to take out the spines. Though I agree that sending maybe 1/3 of my units into his main and leaving the rest to save the natural is probably an ideal breakdown. My main goal with the nydus is actually killing probes before he can recall, so maybe it's better to have as much DPS as possible?
Even if he recalls probes, you're still cutting him from 2 base mining to 1 and making him drop 400 minerals on a new nexus (plus a forge maybe). Losing your bases comes with a considerable cost as well (all the stuff you have to remake + break in mining time) that probably isn't worth getting ~16 of his workers or whatever if you can avoid it.
I'd ****ing love to see sOs pull this out in GSL sometime btw (maybe the fact that he hasn't means that it's not that viable against good players)
also lol that he has 5 tanks and 11 marines. your games do a good job of reminding me that i shouldn't ragequit
why is every bad terran's response to seeing mutas to make vikings? that has to be the worst possible unit they can make that actually hits air.
@11:05 - he scans the top right base? wat?
@11:30 - you're down 30 supply and he has 2/1 to your 0/0. this is gonna be good.
@11:45 - now 50 supply
@13:30 - concussive shells seems like a good upgrade when you have 100 minerals in the bank
@13:45 - his apm goes down about 100 when the fight starts. seems like a solid strategy
@20:00 - he scans the top right base again?
@21ish - any reason you're not going for a greater spire? like ya he randomly has tons of vikings but seems like it could be useful at some point since as his bank dries up he'll be making mostly marines
gg. good comeback, though apparently karl doesn't know you can micro your marines
Even if he recalls probes, you're still cutting him from 2 base mining to 1 and making him drop 400 minerals on a new nexus (plus a forge maybe). Losing your bases comes with a considerable cost as well (all the stuff you have to remake + break in mining time) that probably isn't worth getting ~16 of his workers or whatever if you can avoid it.
I'd ****ing love to see sOs pull this out in GSL sometime btw (maybe the fact that he hasn't means that it's not that viable against good players)
ya true. i wish there was someone who actually knew how to macro behind this (not actually, but in a theoretical sense) so we could know the optimal way to defend.
your games do a good job of reminding me that i shouldn't ragequit
I have a strategy with ragequits, basically that they should be used to avoid rage. In this game, I'm already rage-committed by the time someone would ragequit - I'm gonna be pissed if I lose to that push, so **** it, I might as well stick with it until the hope level reaches 0.
On the other hand, I had a game where after some early adept pressure, I didn't think about followups (usually against P I just blind spore because stargate is so common) and suddenly one of my overlords spots 2 oracles coming my way. That's a calculated insta-leave spot, because chalking it up to a dumb build decision and moving on to the next game is going to be way less rage-inducing than losing 12 drones, trying to fight through, and then losing to the followup push.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsball8806
@11:05 - he scans the top right base? wat?
@20:00 - he scans the top right base again?
I didn't know he did that, but it seems fine - in his sort of situation with a huge lead, I'm generally like, okay, what can I lose to, and let's go ahead and not lose to that. It's generally a short list, like
- mass desperation DTs out of nowhere
- mass desperation <insert dumb unit here> (oracles, void rays, BCs, whatever - make sure you have the tech such that no one dumb composition you didn't see coming will kill you)
- hidden bases
Granted, part of having a huge lead is also generally trying to make sure that I don't lose my whole army to piss-poor micro
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsball8806
apparently karl doesn't know you can micro your marines
Hey, there was that one time he had 2 marines under 5 medivacs fighting vs 4 mutas and picked them up/dropped them individually!
Catching up on GSL beat: this song is an objectively terrible Linkin Park cover yet for some reason it's super catchy (the second half, anyway, that's what they play in GSL)
I finally had time to load up SC2 and wound up donating 200 MMR this past weekend. I have a seasonal 22% winrate vs Terran.
The army graphs after the Terran games aren't even funny. Just straight depressing. Twice the supply simply evaporates.
I never get tired of beating Protoss though, so that kept the ragequit at bay. Feels like I can't lose to Protoss, but I can't beat a Terran.
It's becoming abundantly clear that I'll need to build a Hive at some point if I expect to progress toward Masters and break through the Terrans gatekeepers.
What's your go-to ZvT strat, 2p2? My stubborn refusal to stop attacking into them is probably the main issue here. I should probably always let them come to me.
I didn't know he did that, but it seems fine - in his sort of situation with a huge lead, I'm generally like, okay, what can I lose to, and let's go ahead and not lose to that. It's generally a short list, like
- mass desperation DTs out of nowhere
- mass desperation <insert dumb unit here> (oracles, void rays, BCs, whatever - make sure you have the tech such that no one dumb composition you didn't see coming will kill you)
- hidden bases
this makes sense normally but he didn't even know if you had taken your normal 4th base?
It's becoming abundantly clear that I'll need to build a Hive at some point
!!!!!!
Uh, yes, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that's a problem. How are you going to win ZvTs with 2/2 and no adrenal, no ultras against 3/3? And against mech, no hive = either hit a midgame timing or lose.
Catching up on GSL beat: this song is an objectively terrible Linkin Park cover yet for some reason it's super catchy (the second half, anyway, that's what they play in GSL)
I love that they made GSL music videos lol
lol i kinda liked the cover until he tried to join the band at the end