yeah but theres only 1 reason for this..

fwiw i have no problem with her or the situation. its just kinda obvious why it was her and not one of the other, probably way better masters players that will never get that opportunity

Yo, I got beef with this post.

So? There's a kind of implication here like maybe the anti-sexist culture should stfu sometimes and let the sexist people keep doing what you admit is harmful because at least it doesn't offend your eyes as much.

Why does Destiny have a lot of views for his skill level? He gets, like, thousands and he's just a masters player right?

No, they are equally offensive

Here's the truth, yo-

It's fact that we make a habit of playing and watching a game that is horrifically dominated by males- from the top level players, to the famous personalities, all the way down to us lowly fans. I'm not here to debate this, or to debate the reasons behind this, as they have been discussed ad nauseam. It's clearly a problem; we can all agree on this. Here is the point I'm trying to make:

(I think) we can also all agree on three things:

1. Msspyte got sponsored in no small part because she is a popular streamer.
2. Popularity is a positive feedback loop (i.e., more people watched her because she had lots of stream views, which only increased her popularity).
3. Females get way more streamers for their given skill level than males do.

Note I didn't say X Y Z reason wasn't a reason msypte got sponsored. Note I also didn't say that destiny's personality, or rotterdam's entertaining chat, don't net them more stream viewers. Just those three things.

What I got beef with is that any time anyone points out #3, especially when they point out the reverse- that females would be less popular if they were male, the "i'm better than you are because i'm not racist/sexist/whatever" people come out screaming and kicking with their black and white arguments of "if you don't agree with me, you're a bad person" false dichotomies.

I'm not sexist, nor am I racist. Can I dislike Richard Sherman for being a cocky son of a bitch 25 year old kid without being a racist? Of course I can- I dislike Johnny Manziel for the same reason. Can I think msspyte is in a privileged, well-earned position with a great opportunity to succeed, but it was in large part to her being female, without being called a sexist? I'd like to think I can too.

My two cents- someone reassure me that I'm not crazy.

Destiny is a GM and on NA, decently high GM too also he is very entertaining. He had the same number of viewers almost streaming LoL.

The problem with the white knighting anti-sexism crowd is they often end up being sexist themselves and do the opposite of help with equality which is supposedly the intention.

he has been around for a long time, has a bunch of fans (i dont watch ever) but i assume he is entertaining. just dont ask why day9 has viewers next.

bsball - I think what's sexist about it is that it dominates the conversation about why she has a popular stream and diminishes the other reasons, such as the hard work she's been putting in streaming for years. The success she's currently experiencing is something she's built towards for a long period of time.

What also bothers me is that under your criteria, it is literally impossible for a girl to have a successful stream that you won't attribute to "lol she's a girl". MsSpyte is better than some male players that get more views than her (Rotterdam isn't GM, I don't think, he's streaming atm in Masters); this should fire off question marks in your head, like wait, shouldn't the lolgirl factor outweigh everything else, according to what you've said? But it doesn't. And what's disappointing is that even if MsSpyte or another female streamer possessed the same legit, non-lolgirl qualities that other male streamers are currently using to even be more successful than her, you would never give her credit for it because you simply assume her popularity is driven by her gender.

Going back to this - it's a very bad post.

Guitarcheese's zerg only account is #5 GM NA. He has a GM random account which is #60 GM NA, and doesn't play KR very often but has made GM there when he did. Petraeus is #10 GM NA at the moment. Guitarcheese should have, like, WAY MORE viewers right cause he's such an incredible talent at the game with every race and especially Zerg? But no, he gets like 10-20 viewers on his stream.

There are very obviously, regardless of gender, way more factors that go into stream views than skill.

IDK how this is even a debate. If she was a man she would not be sponsored or be anywhere near as popular. How can anyone argue the opposite and clam to be logical?

r u kidding me goo hara is like D tier

was trying to say that but thats nice and blunt

I mean if the truth hurts...

I mean...are you seriously saying that the #1 reason she had a popular stream to begin with wasn't that she is an attractive female? If you think this, we can stop discussing this as it is clear we have fundamental differences in opinion.

If you agree with me, we can get into the fact that it's not inherently sexist to discuss the fact that she's female. I think that she's a popular streamer because of these reasons too:

-speaks english/interacts with her viewers in a positive way
-plays good music (pulling this directly from what ohead says)
-streams a lot (that positive feedback thing I was talking about a while ago)
-has been streaming for a while and is therefore 'well known' among stream viewers

I don't see how saying "the #1 reason she's popular is because she's female" is at all diminishing her other qualities, especially if you agree with the above point.

I just don't think this is true. I think you're making a huge over-generalization here based on your experiences. I can pretty much say with 100% certainty that if she ever became really ****ing good at the game (say Code A level), I would not even once reference the fact that "well she only got good because she's a girl and ROOT gave her a chance". Look at scarlett- does anyone ever mention her gender? Well, they do, but for different reasons. This addresses your last point that people don't give credit to females. Scarlett is really ****ing good at Starcraft- and no one ever says this.

You're also missing the fact that even though you, or ohead, or whomever here may not watch XYZ player stream because she's a girl, it's blatantly obvious that many other TL and reddit people are. Again, if we disagree here, there's no more need for discussion. That's not the point of this.

Look at smix, or anna prosser- people who both got slack a while ago for 'only getting where they were because they are girls'. Does anyone here make any comments about that now? No, because they've both transitioned into great hosts and translators by making the most out of the opportunities they were handed. So to use the 'no one would ever give them respect' argument doesn't seem appropriate here. Even scarlett- I remember back when she was a player only here and there playing in red bulls and barely qualifying for tournaments. Some fame here, some notoriety there, and now she's a top 3 (i would argue best) foreign zerg. Not because she was a girl- because she was talented as **** and worked her ass off.

FYI, rotterdam was EU GM for a period of time- I'm not sure of who would win a BoX right now, but I'm pretty sure that rotterdam was a better player than spite at the time she was picked up.

Goofy, this is not directed at you, but how can you not see the psychological projection that oozes out of every conversation (from both sides) when race/gender/sexuality come up? I mean, it's just blatantly obvious in every conversation. Only two types of people bring up the topic of clarence thomas only getting to the supreme court because he is black- racists, and people that get uncomfortable thinking about the fact that maybe...just maybe...it might have something to do with it.

i honestly didn't know which side you were arguing until now

Maybe if she was a man she would not have had to deal with other impediments to being a woman in gaming, and she would be the next foreigner hope playing in Korea. It's impossible to say, so it's probably better to just respect her accomplishments and be glad that the esports world is getting ever so slightly more diverse and inclusive.

OMG, wtf is going on itt as of lately?

If she was a man she might just magically be better? No it's not impossible to say at all, she would have the exact same ability as she does now.

And that is probably the most sexist thought in this whole thing, "if she was a different sex she might be better", wtf kinda of logic is that?

Also who is disrespecting her accomplishments? People itt, me included, think shes good but not great and the only reason shes on a pro team is because shes a good draw rather than her ability to compete at a pro level. Again, thats just plan the truth.

And Bsball makes a good point about Scarlett. Does anyone ever question her getting picked up? No, because she actually has talent. Not saying Spyte doesn't but someone here name a major tourny shes won....OK how about a major top 5...Or hell a major top 20 even... Again how the **** is this even a debate?

Edit: obv don't think anyone here is sexist, just that what you said is lolsexist even tho you didn't mean it that way.

If you think my point is even arguably sexist, you're probably misunderstanding it. I'm not saying she would get a magic Y chromosome MMR boost, I'm saying if she was not a woman, her entire experience as a gamer would be quite different and very possibly in a way that would make it easier to have developed elite SC2 skill. It's a distortion to focus on the one advantage that being a woman may have given her (people find her stream more fun to watch) and ignore all the challenges that she may have faced as a woman in an overwhelmingly male field.

Challenges such as?

Getting picked up because you are a woman and having more viewers because you are a woman seem like advantages. Obv good for her/anyone who can use that to their advantage to do what they want.

And I think the thought that some people in her chat might say, "make me a sandwich" on occasion has literally nothing to do with how much talent she has.

Other than that you'll have to expand on why her being a woman made it harder to play SC2 at a high level, I clearly don't get it right now.

Challenges? wtf?

First off, it's very important to distinguish between actual skill and innate talent. Skill is talent plus practice and training. Let's assume that msspyte's innate talent level has nothing to do with her gender. Even so, there are a zillion ways that being a woman could hinder her developing that talent. When she was in middle school, maybe she faced social stigma if she wanted to play video games on a Friday night instead of doing girly stuff. Today, maybe there are potential stream viewers who don't watch her stream because she doesn't fit their preconception of what a serious player is (because she's a woman). Maybe the gender-based abusive trolling she has to put up with makes it harder for her to cope with ladder stress.

Maybe none of this stuff happened. Who knows? But it's a gigantic assumption to assume that being a woman has advanced msspyte's career, on the whole, based on identifying one possible bonus and disregarding every possible drawback.

Sherman's constant need of confirmation that his belief that he is the best CB by continuously reminding people who he is...yeah he is an easy guy to dislike. Just wish he'd shut his mouth about "being the best" especially as a zone corner instead of the top tier guys like Revis/Verner/PP21 that all play man.

BUT!!!

Hating on Johnny Football...man...I just...come on....dude's awesome.

Streaming my first games in like a month! New laptop arrived.

http://www.twitch.tv/goofyballer

This is a very fair point. However, I don't think we're disagreeing.

I'm way more moderate when it comes to everything than it appears. I just like throwing **** over the fence and seeing what comes back.

Reminder, GSL finals in 3 hours 15 mins (10pm Pacific, 1am Eastern)! It's USA-friendly this time!

Rotterdam > Ms. Spyte. He's been GM lots before.

Guitarcheese isn't on team ROOT, he isnt even featured on TL, why would he get many stream views?

Yes there are, but gender is a big one, not sure why you seem intent to hammer at this when it is so obviously true.

Even VeraLynn was getting hundreds of viewers when people thought she was a female GM.

Her popularity is driven by her gender. Rotterdam is a famous caster. Like apples and oranges.

Spyte is getting more viewers than anyone on team ROOT despite being by FAR their weakest player, like its not even close.