I used to do a 7 pool eco back in WoL that I had a lot of success with. It was a good soft counter to a forge first which 95% of protoss did back then. After my first 6 lings I just droned hard while getting a queen and expo at ~15 then going for muta.

I went straight for the forge and burned it down so at most he gets 1 cannon in his minerals. If he gets 0 cannons or he went nexus first no scout then I just stream lings and win. Otherwise I just harass his buildings trying to piss him off. I try to deny him taking both gases since 1 cannon cant cover both geysers to keep his dragoon count as low as possible when my mutas hit.

I'd have to try your build but I have a feeling a cannon will be up if he went forge first no gateway but I could be wrong. The problem with this build is if he goes gate first he is way ahead b/c you will do no damage.

I'm seeing about 25% of protoss go gate first lately for whatever reason (mid/high diamond) compared to almost never at the end of WoL. That reason alone makes me want to go 15 pool every game since it gets you ahead against gate first and when played right beats 4gates and proxy 2 gates.

If anyone thinks widow mines are balanced - FishtermerService just got diamond. Think about that.

you two showmatch gogogo

Agree that a showmatch is needed

Interesting TL post about mines



The right panel of that chart would seem to indicate that...
- low-mine TvZ is fairly even
- high-mine TvZ has a high T winrate
- the higher the league, the more players are figuring out they should make lots of mines

looking at only those two variables makes that stat not mean very much

Yeah. I bet if you looked at games where BLs were produced you'd see a strong correlation to win rate. Doesn't tell us much without other variables.

Pretty sure the same goes for like Tempest in PvT, once the Protoss got tempest it`s all over baby.

it might not be as meaningful as suggested, but it is way more interesting than the BL or tempest analogy.

i have been crushing anything that isn't bio/medivac/widowmine lately, but have pretty big problems with that comp.

The issue is that Starcraft has so many variables and there's a fine line between meaning nothing (e.g., >10 SCVs made) and meaning everything (tempests, for example). The first requires you to look at these WRs relative to overall win rates and the second means your data is useless.

Well, it's notable that making 10 mines in TvP doesn't change T's winrate whatsoever. I think the "well Z wins more when they make brood lords" analogy fails there.

I'm with rageotones, it's not proof of anything but it's an interesting and not-worthless data point.

Just means that bad zergs are gonna bad.

so guys is terran a good race?

Win rate goes up as you make more units, no surprise there.

is that a publicly searchable tool? last wol matchup % i saw had zvt at 60:40, kinda hard to feel bad after less than a month

See the TvP column

Yeah, Zerg was def OP in WoL. You can do searches with that tool through the URL but I'm not sure how to use it, maybe ask OP how he's compiling that data?

You're absolutely right. I got diamond by only producing widow mines. Macro, Micro, everything out the door. Widow mines took me right into diamond. TvP? **** it. TvT? **** it. TvZ bio+widow mine is what got me into diamond.

I love hearing all the zergs QQ about widow mines. It's been 1 month and you've had to deal with 1 little unit being included into a composition. Imagine what it felt like having to deal with Bling/Ling then Infestor/Corruptor/BL. Quit QQ'ing and learn to play.

On a side note....Yaaaaa diiiaaaaammmonnnnddddd.

Also, Life won MLG. Game's balanced.

unless you're the zerg in said TvZ game with >10 widow mines...

stat doesn't have to mean anything but it can (eg if winrate when T makes >1 marine is >>50% obviously that's very meaningful, winrate when T makes >30 battlecruisers less so). But >10 widow mines to me at least suggests that either a) widow mines are a bit too strong or b) TvZ is terran favoured in the late game. I suspect from the limited sample of games I've seen that it's more b than a, and I don't think that implies they need to be fixed since most late game TvZ is just infinity drops until the zerg finally crumbles.

Goofy,

There is no need......

































to be upset.

I play the skillful game too.

it's not so much the op-ness of widow mines. it's that the micro required if you go heavy ling bane is similar to the ridiculous micro you see in early game zvz ling bane battles.

that micro really shouldn't be necessary to engage at the 15 min mark imo.

splitting marines sucks, but at least they're still killing **** and the banelings explode.

the ****tiest part is that you can't even use a few lings to set off the mines when terran has enough units b/c they kill the lings before the mine goes off.

I actually got angry watching this game of Stephano vs QXC:

http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/388321796?t=404m5s

I mean seriously. Look at it!

new stats including games with over 100 widow mines made needed

This was the most beautiful thing i've seen all day. It is very reminiscent of spider mines in brood war and let's just say Bisu didn't roll over like a little bitch every time Flash dropped another mine field in between his 3rd and his natural.

From reading about spider mines, it seems like they...
- couldn't hit air
- once placed, could never move from that point

The concept may be similar, but those are both pretty big weaknesses that widow mines don't suffer from.

In that game it seems like the biggest imbalance was that widow mines basically let you, like, APM troll your opponent. It cost Stephano way more APM to respond to qxc's mines than qxc had to expend to place them.