Guardian shield doesn't help against lings

variance - come across player called BoxervsYellow at micro rush

so what you're saying is the downside to mutas is the only thing you can build counters everything the protoss will build to deal with mutas

Ya I feel like mutas do much better in the standard 20+ pack but I have nothing to back this up. What unit tester map are you using blah blah?

Muta's don't necessarily pwn against Protoss because of their strength in any head-on battle. The point of muta's is that you can constantly harass and keep them under pressure, picking off probes / pylons / whatever you can. It basically results in a light contain. The protoss player can't move his army out in fear of losing his probe line, or needs to spend money on static defense, meanwhile the zerg player can expand and take map control and macro his way into a victory.

And yeah, as Imolin mentioned, basically all the counters to lings are countered my mutalisks. That's why the combo works so well. Lings force Protoss to make zealots / collosi which do 0 dmg to the muta's. Zerg just needs to focus down the anti air units, then run the lings away.

I've pretty much started doing Phoenix openings in PvZ to deter against Muta builds as I think it's the hardest zerg unit to deal with.

What about sentries? They do well against both lings and mutas.

Also, diamond in 2s, boo ya. Only took me 151 games.

Something that might help the mutas over stalkers is the fact that they fly. LDO AMIRITE??!? but really, when you're harassing back and forth between bases stalkers end up shuffling between the bases as well. This is where that wall-in hurts. Great while defending against zerlings, kinda bad when you're forced to march single file through it to deter harass. The muta pack can focus the stalkers down as they return up the ramp. If too many get in range...fly away! Rinse&repeat.

Just because zerg gets mutas doesn't mean you should go mass stalker. You can get twice as many stalkers as he gets mutas as gas is the limiting factor, and you don't need a 2:1 ratio so you can get other units that cream lings. It's very very easy to deal with large ammounts of speedlings if you have a couple of sentries + colossus or something. Guardian shield helps a lot vs muta splash and takes away 40% of speedling damage too. You force him to move in with mutas to snipe the colossus, which is a trade that won't be in his favor.

I realize this is BBV but lol? A speedling needs 36 attacks to take out a stalker, but 67 when it's under guardian shield.

The extra damage from bounce adds up (tbh, I thought mutas beat stalkers once they reached around 16 in numbers so I'm curious about which unit tester blah is using as well).

Guardian shield only reduces damage from ranged attacks (so it has no effect vs speedlings).

Guardian Shield (G)
Creates a range of 4 aura that reduces incoming ranged damage to friendly units by 2. Lasts 15 seconds.

+y

beat:guardian shield does not do what you think it does
brag:you think collosus is a good idea when he has mutas
variance:you realize this is bbv, lol?



*****

not totally sure. i downloaded it a while ago. its simply called "The Unit Tester". the most i tested was 20v20 but i think it was only un-upgraded. i feel like above that you can't really complain about what unit beats what because its going to be much more of a macro issue. its much more likely that you actually have a 5v5 or maybe 10v10 mutas vs stalkers but how often are you going to get 20v20 or more, isolated in equal numbers? that far into the game you're rarely going to see purely muta vs stalker.

did some more 20v20 stuff. 1/0 mutas lose to 0/0 stalkers barely. 2/1 mutas beat 0/0 stalkers and have 8 ~ half health mutas left. 1/2 mutas beat 0/0 stalkers w/ 6 full health mutas and 3 ~1/4 health mutas. obviously there's going to be some variance w/ which mutas take damage but the amount of damage should be pretty similar. o i also did 0/1 mutas but those were pretty much useless. so +1 attack > +1 armor. +2 armor > +2 attack.

Lol game knowledge fail. Anyway, forcefield is a super hard counter to speedlings so sentries are still good.

Very realistic scenario: 10 stalkers with 1/0 upgrade and 1 colossus vs 10 mutas with 1/0 upgrade. If the mutas snipe the colossus and back out, you'll kill 4 mutas, costing 400/400 while the colossus was 300/200. Going stalker colossus sentry zealot is a very strong build against muta/ling. You'll easily win a battle. The only thing Zerg has on you is mobility which he can use to harass.

edit: the 10 vs 10 test I ran was done with focus fire and you need 11 shots to kill a muta so that was actually very very favorable for the mutas.

what the stunna would stalker collosus sentry zealot not be a strong build for? thats like all of our units. good luck supporting that with all the muta harass in your base -.-. a good zerg would never engage head on with mutas, he'd harass with them and pull them back if need be but never willingly engage in a straight up battle... so no, i dont think your situation with 10 mutas all on their lonesome will decide to go after a collosus protected by 10 stalkers is a realistic scenario

Are you on EU grindcore?

You are contradicting yourself.



And if you don't want to go robo, then just get a stargate for pheonix and make zealots/sentries with your gateway to deal with the speedlings.

how am i contradicting myself

I'm trying to be helpful and you're giving trollish replies with no arguments. I'm not gonna bother replying anymore.


Yeah.

I don't think imolin is trolling you grindcore, b/c I don't know what you mean either. Also, the 10 stalks + 1 colo vs 10 mutas isn't a very realistic scenario, b/c the z isn't ever really going to have solely mutas (he'll most likely have a buncha lings to complement the mutas).

yeah but +attack is better for harassment than armor, ldo.

BTW I meant that the mutas would kill twice more stalkers if they were upgraded than if the mutas had no upgrade.

didnt mean 10 mutas would kill 20 stalkers -.-..

Exactly, which is why you get the colossus. My argument for mutas not being overpowered was mutas being more expensive than stalkers, eating up all his gas, leaving him with only lings to build. The counter argument was that lings are good against stalkers, so my re to that is that you don't mass stalker, but just enough to kill the mutas (at least equal numbers). Since they're cheaper, the rest goes to anti ling (like colossus, sentries). Maybe he wasn't trying to troll but it's very frustrating to argue with someone posting 1 liners with no reasoning so I'm out.

I didn't really think about it & just thought you meant 10 mutas > 20 stalkers tbh. Although I assumed you meant it when the mutas are at w/e number it is that equal numbers will have them beating stalks.

I get what you're saying, but the lings are still gonna get some hits in (if the z has 10 mutas, he's probably gonna have 50+ lings & 1 colo can only fire so fast). No one's saying mutas are OP btw.

They were actually, which is why I replied